8 ms·

There's nothing debatable about gender discrimination existing in the industry. It's not your opinion. It exists. Age discrimination exists as well, but that's

by ceol 15y ago

There's nothing debatable about gender discrimination existing in the industry. It's not your opinion. It exists. Age discrimination exists as well, but that's not what this article is about, and you shouldn't try to grab focus with it.

eternalban 15y ago
My personal experience in the field does not support your apparently strongly held assertion. Thus "IMO". > "you shouldn't try to grab focus with" Please do not question my motivation. I had a point to make.
- ceol 15y ago
  It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate. Women face a lot of discrimination in the tech industry. You can say, "I don't see it," but saying it's your opinion that it doesn't exist is characterizing it as something that is opinionated. I'm sorry if it wasn't your intent to steal focus. What you did, whether intentional or not, is a common derailing tactic.
  - lrhot9 15y ago
    The only way for it to not be up for debate would be if there existed a perfect discrimination-measuring machine. Look, if lack of diversity can only be explained by discrimination, you need to show that the field where women are most underrepresented - higher mathematics - is also the most rife with discrimination. I've never seen a female mathematician suggest it is. How do you explain this?
    - ceol 15y ago
      By that logic, nothing can ever exist without some way to measure it, yet we know of things like emotions and attractiveness. Would you then say that "hatred" or "love" cannot exist because there isn't a hatred/love-measuring machine? Just because you have not seen it does not mean it doesn't exist. I don't have any experience with higher mathematics, but let's take programming. Would the existence of a women-centric programming club be proof enough of the discrimination women face? What about the blog posts of women in CS courses expressing their disdain for their male classmates/teachers? Or the attempts to attract women into the field?
      - lrhot9 15y ago
        No, by that logic, it's just up for debate.
        ceol 15y ago
        And which side would you take in that debate?
        lrhot9 15y ago
        The dark side
      - squiggly101 15y ago
        "Just because you have not seen it does not mean it doesn't exist." And just because you say it is so does not make it so. To say something is "not up for debate" is really just saying you are not willing to hear or consider alternative views or opinions, and is a hallmark of the way feminists approach all kind of discourse and discussion with men. The only thing left to do really is start screeching "misogynist" at everyone who disagrees with you.
      - mangodrunk 15y ago
        Your examples are things that can be measured. Also, if you don't need evidence, then I can say anything.
        ceol 15y ago
        I have plenty of evidence in the form of experience by women. I don't have a "discrimination-measuring machine", though. You'd be hard-pressed to find one of those. I know this isn't what a lot of HNers like to hear, but discrimination exists whether you can measure it with a ruler or not. This is one of those things where you have to piece together anecdotal evidence with an empirical lack of women to get the answer.
        lrhot9 15y ago
  - patricklynch 15y ago
    "It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate." If he hasn't seen any compelling evidence of [Issue X], then for him it remains unresolved. Rather than being offended that his mind isn't made up the right way, you might consider sharing whatever evidence makes you convinced that [Issue X] is a problem. --- assertion - a positive statement or declaration, often without support or reason (from dictionary.com) That seems like a perfectly fitting word to me.
    - ceol 15y ago
      If you assumed I was offended by his post, you're far off. I'm only disappointed. The evidence is this blog post and the countless ones like it saying how tough it is for a woman to get into programming without being bombarded with negative attention just because of their gender. As I said in the other reply, there is no way to perfectly measure discrimination. If you don't trust the various testimonies by women in the tech industry and would rather plug your ears, please do not further this discussion. Links to check out: http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2010/07/26/woman-in-technology/ http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2010/07/26/woman-in-tech... http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/edlife/12STABINE.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/edlife/12STABINE.html http://www.bluepoof.com/Colloquium/attitudes.html http://www.bluepoof.com/Colloquium/attitudes.html http://web.mit.edu/fnl/women/women.html http://web.mit.edu/fnl/women/women.html
      - patricklynch 15y ago
        Fine; replace 'offended' with 'disappointed.' My point--which you seem to have missed--is the same. I'm not addressing the issue of gender discrimination. I'm saying that your rhetorical approach, which seems to be "loudly proclaim that everyone should magically see things the same way I do," is ridiculous.
        ceol 15y ago
        What part is magic? I'm saying to take the testimony of women who are either in the field or have attempted to join as evidence. Were you just nit-picking at my use of "it's not up for debate"?
  - Helianthus 15y ago
    >It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate. You aren't willing to debate it, which is a perfectly legitimate (if elitist) sentiment to express. Your entire strategy in writing has been to combat while loudly saying you aren't going to fight.

by ceol 15y ago

eternalban 15y ago

My personal experience in the field does not support your apparently strongly held assertion. Thus "IMO". > "you shouldn't try to grab focus with" Please do not question my motivation. I had a point to make.

ceol 15y ago
It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate. Women face a lot of discrimination in the tech industry. You can say, "I don't see it," but saying it's your opinion that it doesn't exist is characterizing it as something that is opinionated. I'm sorry if it wasn't your intent to steal focus. What you did, whether intentional or not, is a common derailing tactic.
- lrhot9 15y ago
  The only way for it to not be up for debate would be if there existed a perfect discrimination-measuring machine. Look, if lack of diversity can only be explained by discrimination, you need to show that the field where women are most underrepresented - higher mathematics - is also the most rife with discrimination. I've never seen a female mathematician suggest it is. How do you explain this?
  - ceol 15y ago
    By that logic, nothing can ever exist without some way to measure it, yet we know of things like emotions and attractiveness. Would you then say that "hatred" or "love" cannot exist because there isn't a hatred/love-measuring machine? Just because you have not seen it does not mean it doesn't exist. I don't have any experience with higher mathematics, but let's take programming. Would the existence of a women-centric programming club be proof enough of the discrimination women face? What about the blog posts of women in CS courses expressing their disdain for their male classmates/teachers? Or the attempts to attract women into the field?
    - lrhot9 15y ago
      No, by that logic, it's just up for debate.
      - ceol 15y ago
        And which side would you take in that debate?
        lrhot9 15y ago
        The dark side
    - squiggly101 15y ago
      "Just because you have not seen it does not mean it doesn't exist." And just because you say it is so does not make it so. To say something is "not up for debate" is really just saying you are not willing to hear or consider alternative views or opinions, and is a hallmark of the way feminists approach all kind of discourse and discussion with men. The only thing left to do really is start screeching "misogynist" at everyone who disagrees with you.
    - mangodrunk 15y ago
      Your examples are things that can be measured. Also, if you don't need evidence, then I can say anything.
      - ceol 15y ago
        I have plenty of evidence in the form of experience by women. I don't have a "discrimination-measuring machine", though. You'd be hard-pressed to find one of those. I know this isn't what a lot of HNers like to hear, but discrimination exists whether you can measure it with a ruler or not. This is one of those things where you have to piece together anecdotal evidence with an empirical lack of women to get the answer.
        lrhot9 15y ago
- patricklynch 15y ago
  "It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate." If he hasn't seen any compelling evidence of [Issue X], then for him it remains unresolved. Rather than being offended that his mind isn't made up the right way, you might consider sharing whatever evidence makes you convinced that [Issue X] is a problem. --- assertion - a positive statement or declaration, often without support or reason (from dictionary.com) That seems like a perfectly fitting word to me.
  - ceol 15y ago
    If you assumed I was offended by his post, you're far off. I'm only disappointed. The evidence is this blog post and the countless ones like it saying how tough it is for a woman to get into programming without being bombarded with negative attention just because of their gender. As I said in the other reply, there is no way to perfectly measure discrimination. If you don't trust the various testimonies by women in the tech industry and would rather plug your ears, please do not further this discussion. Links to check out: http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2010/07/26/woman-in-technology/ http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2010/07/26/woman-in-tech... http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/edlife/12STABINE.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/edlife/12STABINE.html http://www.bluepoof.com/Colloquium/attitudes.html http://www.bluepoof.com/Colloquium/attitudes.html http://web.mit.edu/fnl/women/women.html http://web.mit.edu/fnl/women/women.html
    - patricklynch 15y ago
      Fine; replace 'offended' with 'disappointed.' My point--which you seem to have missed--is the same. I'm not addressing the issue of gender discrimination. I'm saying that your rhetorical approach, which seems to be "loudly proclaim that everyone should magically see things the same way I do," is ridiculous.
      - ceol 15y ago
        What part is magic? I'm saying to take the testimony of women who are either in the field or have attempted to join as evidence. Were you just nit-picking at my use of "it's not up for debate"?
- Helianthus 15y ago
  >It's not an assertion because this isn't something up for debate. You aren't willing to debate it, which is a perfectly legitimate (if elitist) sentiment to express. Your entire strategy in writing has been to combat while loudly saying you aren't going to fight.