6 ms·

The war started in 2014, with the invasion of Crimea and the Dobnas. The 2022 invasion was an escalation.

yucky 4y ago
> The war started in 2014, with the invasion of Crimea and the Dobnas. That's what started it? Any idea what happened the day before the invasion of Crimea?
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  The Ukrainian president was overthrown for trying to increase ties with Russia? Which doesn't really justify Russian troops invading (albeit without uniforms) to annex parts of Ukraine.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
    I have found this article to be a good debunker on the above talking point: https://www.thebulwark.com/what-really-happened-in-ukraine-in-2014-and-since-then/ https://www.thebulwark.com/what-really-happened-in-ukraine-i...
    - jessaustin 4y ago
      That apologia might be more convincing if the word "NATO" appeared anywhere? Every time Putin speaks, he complains about NATO expansion into Ukraine and the resulting missiles pointed at his house from minutes away. http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/70565 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/70565
      - mopsi 4y ago
        NATO is just an excuse, even die-hard Russian nationalists like Girkin don't take that seriously and openly mock his constant whining about NATO.
        jessaustin 4y ago
        Bullshit. You could replace Putin with any other Russian politician, and their opposition to encirclement by a pact motivated by opposition to Russia would remain. Care to cite anyone we've heard of and not because they murdered a bunch of air passengers?
        mopsi 4y ago
        At the time, not even Putin himself opposed Eastern European countries joining NATO. A few days after further 7 countries in Eastern Europe officially became full members of NATO, Putin met with German Chancellor Schröder and raised no concerns, and even told the press that "every country can choose their security". The official statement from the Kremlin: > Russia has not expressed any fears for its own security over NATO expansion. However, said the President, Russia will design its defence policy with due account of the fact that NATO is moving closer to its borders. Modern threats cannot be removed by increasing the number of NATO member countries, the President noted. However, Russia’s relations with the North Atlantic alliance were developing in a positive way. The Russian head of state expressed hope that any issues that arose would be solved within the Russia-NATO Council. -- http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/30678 http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/30678 Not a word about being under threat by NATO, "reckless NATO expansion", "encirclement" or "broken promises", all of which were invented after Putin consolidated power and his policy shifted towards conquering the former Eastern Bloc countries to restore the lost empire.
        yucky 4y ago
        Do you think the world has changed much in the 20 years since then?
        mopsi 4y ago
        No. The security architecture of Europe remained the same until Russia started the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. No new signifcant NATO members, no significant troop or weapon deployments, no policy changes. Cold War stockpiles were dismantled to cut costs and NATO was so stagnant that French president Macron even called it braindead.
  - yucky 4y ago
    Yup, a coup on their border. One that directly impacted the majority Russian regions of Ukraine including Crimeans who voted to be annexed to Russia since they're mostly all Russian. We recognize Kosovo who did the same thing, but not Crimea. There is no difference. Then Ukraine cut off water supplies to Crimea which eventually led to the more recent invasion after the reservoirs had almost run out. Remember that next time you hear our State controlled media parroting the "totally unprovoked invasion" line.
  - jessaustin 4y ago
    He was overthrown because he didn't kowtow deeply enough in EU negotiations. As in, they wanted to install full-blown IMF-style austerity and privatization of public assets, and they wanted to do it all yesterday. Yanukovich tried to go slower and bargain for more aid and less austerity. He thought they might come back with a counter-offer. Nuland and her masters grew impatient with EU negotiators, then chose a different option... This is the point in the discussion at which we usually suffer tired invocations of "Ukrainians had agency!" Sure they did, but if we had polled even the most violent of the protesters as to whether they wanted to import enough NATO weapons to cause a war with Russia, very few of them would have agreed. (Probably more would have agreed that it was good to start killing Russian-speakers in Donbas? Well if the poll was taken in Kiev.) Ukraine was a weak polity, without the sort of solidarity required to resist American (and Russian) exploitation of civic divisions. Maybe they imagined that they would escape the fates of similar polities in Hungary, Georgia, Afghanistan, etc. They have not.

> The war started in 2014, with the invasion of Crimea and the Dobnas. That's what started it? Any idea what happened the day before the invasion of Crimea?

paulryanrogers 4y ago
The Ukrainian president was overthrown for trying to increase ties with Russia? Which doesn't really justify Russian troops invading (albeit without uniforms) to annex parts of Ukraine.
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  I have found this article to be a good debunker on the above talking point: https://www.thebulwark.com/what-really-happened-in-ukraine-in-2014-and-since-then/ https://www.thebulwark.com/what-really-happened-in-ukraine-i...
  - jessaustin 4y ago
    That apologia might be more convincing if the word "NATO" appeared anywhere? Every time Putin speaks, he complains about NATO expansion into Ukraine and the resulting missiles pointed at his house from minutes away. http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/70565 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/70565
    - mopsi 4y ago
      NATO is just an excuse, even die-hard Russian nationalists like Girkin don't take that seriously and openly mock his constant whining about NATO.
      - jessaustin 4y ago
        Bullshit. You could replace Putin with any other Russian politician, and their opposition to encirclement by a pact motivated by opposition to Russia would remain. Care to cite anyone we've heard of and not because they murdered a bunch of air passengers?
        mopsi 4y ago
        At the time, not even Putin himself opposed Eastern European countries joining NATO. A few days after further 7 countries in Eastern Europe officially became full members of NATO, Putin met with German Chancellor Schröder and raised no concerns, and even told the press that "every country can choose their security". The official statement from the Kremlin: > Russia has not expressed any fears for its own security over NATO expansion. However, said the President, Russia will design its defence policy with due account of the fact that NATO is moving closer to its borders. Modern threats cannot be removed by increasing the number of NATO member countries, the President noted. However, Russia’s relations with the North Atlantic alliance were developing in a positive way. The Russian head of state expressed hope that any issues that arose would be solved within the Russia-NATO Council. -- http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/30678 http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/30678 Not a word about being under threat by NATO, "reckless NATO expansion", "encirclement" or "broken promises", all of which were invented after Putin consolidated power and his policy shifted towards conquering the former Eastern Bloc countries to restore the lost empire.
        yucky 4y ago
        Do you think the world has changed much in the 20 years since then?
        mopsi 4y ago
        No. The security architecture of Europe remained the same until Russia started the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. No new signifcant NATO members, no significant troop or weapon deployments, no policy changes. Cold War stockpiles were dismantled to cut costs and NATO was so stagnant that French president Macron even called it braindead.
- yucky 4y ago
  Yup, a coup on their border. One that directly impacted the majority Russian regions of Ukraine including Crimeans who voted to be annexed to Russia since they're mostly all Russian. We recognize Kosovo who did the same thing, but not Crimea. There is no difference. Then Ukraine cut off water supplies to Crimea which eventually led to the more recent invasion after the reservoirs had almost run out. Remember that next time you hear our State controlled media parroting the "totally unprovoked invasion" line.
- jessaustin 4y ago
  He was overthrown because he didn't kowtow deeply enough in EU negotiations. As in, they wanted to install full-blown IMF-style austerity and privatization of public assets, and they wanted to do it all yesterday. Yanukovich tried to go slower and bargain for more aid and less austerity. He thought they might come back with a counter-offer. Nuland and her masters grew impatient with EU negotiators, then chose a different option... This is the point in the discussion at which we usually suffer tired invocations of "Ukrainians had agency!" Sure they did, but if we had polled even the most violent of the protesters as to whether they wanted to import enough NATO weapons to cause a war with Russia, very few of them would have agreed. (Probably more would have agreed that it was good to start killing Russian-speakers in Donbas? Well if the poll was taken in Kiev.) Ukraine was a weak polity, without the sort of solidarity required to resist American (and Russian) exploitation of civic divisions. Maybe they imagined that they would escape the fates of similar polities in Hungary, Georgia, Afghanistan, etc. They have not.