7 ms·

I hope they defend it with a vengeance so nobody can copy it

rkangel 4y ago
Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see this as particularly evil. It's just a more efficient of what already happens in terms of care repossession. What needs to happen is better consumer protection to prevent americans buying cars on finance that they are never going to be able to afford.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Exactly (on both sides). We should help people to find and choose cars they can afford. And, when someone does not pay as agreed to a significant degree, the more efficient that a repossession can happen, the better a deal can be offered to borrowers who do pay as agreed.
  - trelane 4y ago
    > Exactly (on both sides). We should help people to find and choose cars they can afford. I'd personally much prefer to make public transit that is so good that everyone uses it.
    - macinjosh 4y ago
      No such thing exists.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      Sure. Make better public transit and many people will choose the null car.
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    In the 1970s my dad found that American car dealerships had no interest in selling small and economical cars at all. Japanese car dealerships have been this way recently, before the pandemic hit we tried to buy a new Honda Fit and had to buy a used one because they had none in inventory because, allegedly, the factory had washed away in a flood but they had a row of 50 CR-Vs made in the same factory. The dealer tried to push us into one of those. The automotive press uncritically reports that American consumers are crazy about huge vehicles but what I've observed is that dealers are crazy about selling huge vehicles. Before the pandemic you would frequently see small cars were selling out as fast they arrived on the lot but dealers would have a sea of huge and expensive vehicles and be offering $8000 or so in incentives to sell them. If small vehicles were really unpopular it would be the other way around. There are rumors that Toyota and Honda would love to kill the Corolla and Civic but the quality of those vehicles is so legendary and the attachment of owners is so fanatical that they know people aren't going to "trade up" but will be paying new car prices for high mileage vehicles.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Your dealer doesn't know what they're talking about, which is par for the course. You couldn't find a Fit because Honda stopped importing them. They were discontinued in the US due to poor sales.
      - PaulHoule 4y ago
        Not in my neighborhood. The Blue Honda Fit is the ideal getaway car in Tompkins County because you could do donuts in somebody's yard and they tell the cops and then they'd have to flag down every 20th car.
        kube-system 4y ago
        They're great cars, but (unfortunately) compact SUVs are far outselling them. Compare the Fit and HRV sales figures and it's clear why Honda did it.
        20after4 4y ago
        That assumes that sales figures are entirely controlled by demand. The OP points out a perfectly plausible mechanism by which demand is not the only factor affecting sales volume. It's almost certainly true that dealerships will stock what's profitable, customer preferences be damned.
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        This would assume that either the only game in town is Honda or that all the other manufacturers are colluding with Honda. Absent significant evidence, it is safer to assume people’s preferences are causing the lower sales.
        20after4 4y ago
        Where I live, all of the major new car dealerships are owned by the same company. No I'm not making this up: https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/business/2014/10/02/warren-buffett-buying-springfield-car-dealerships/16596321/ https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/business/2014/10/02/w...
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  You’re giving Ford the benefit of the doubt that it will work as described and won’t be abused. Have they earned that reputation regarding automated systems, and how will they deal with false positive/bugs etc. when the wrong car is repossessed at the worst time for its owner ?
  - kube-system 4y ago
    I suspect it would be dealt with in the same way that human error is dealt with today.
    - HarryHirsch 4y ago
      Which means, not at all, look at the recent Hertz case about rental cars reported as stolen and then doubling down, because admitting to problems with the process would mean admitting to criminal intent.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        Repos and reporting cars as stolen are two different things.
        HarryHirsch 4y ago
        The poster was talking about "human error". If you are out of a car because your lender messed up (perhaps intentionally to pocket the late fee) you are in trouble, because everyone needs a vehicle to get to work on time. And of course you have as much recourse against your lender as the people at the receiving end of the Hertz case. Didn't Peter Thiel say you need a seven-figure sum to make the legal system work for you?
        kube-system 4y ago
        I don't disagree with the end point, but I have a hard time understanding why the Hertz case demonstrates that Ford is likely to lie with criminal intent about a mistaken repo. It has literally nothing in common except that it involves a car. If Ford wants to lie about repos or lie about human error, they can do that now, they don't need a computer to do it. The whole damn process is subject to human error as it is today.
- kube-system 4y ago
  > prevent americans buying cars on finance that they are never going to be able to afford The issue is that "Making finance accessible to low income Americans" and "predatory lending" are approximately two sides of the same coin. And so it is not politically popular.
  - KarlKemp 4y ago
    That's part of the narrative for the financial crisis. Even without waging that particular fight, it's important to remember that, for a long time, there were plenty of barriers to full participation that had nothing to do with the individual's ability to afford something. Redlining is probably the best documented of these practices.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Every creditworthiness measure is subject to some bias. Most practical ways of tightening lending is going to end up with some correlative demographic being disproportionately excluded.
  - notch898a 4y ago
    Lowering the cost of repossession lowers the risk/cost to lending to low income. It's good for the poor.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Yes, I agree with that.
    - hd95489 4y ago
      In theory it should but I’m practice it probably won’t since the market isn’t actually competitive
- macinjosh 4y ago
  I can see it now: A cash-strapped, frazzled single-mom parks her car on her driveway to unload groceries, leaving her child in the car seat while she carries bags inside the garage. While the mom is walking toward the door the car repossesses itself and heads back to the dealership, child trapped inside.
  - willyt 4y ago
    After this happens the first time they will add some kind of checking mechanism which means you can defeat repossession by putting a doll sitting on some bricks in a child car seat to avoid this happening automatically.
    - macinjosh 4y ago
      haha! At this rate, in the future, fooling an AI will be considered a form of hacking and met with computer fraud and abuse or inauthentic behavior charges.
- pengaru 4y ago
  > care repossession Does autocorrect make Freudian slips?
- throwuwu 4y ago
  People are going to use this to steal cars and scam people. It will almost certainly screw up and kill somebody at some point. No amount of new features will ever convince me to buy a car that does this but the people who do buy them will undoubtedly be poor and marginalized and offered a great deal on their financing if they choose the roborepo car.
- saxonww 4y ago
  I had a different thought - this makes it very appealing to stop selling cars altogether, and only lease or rent them.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  This. I anecdotally seen this happen to my wife's friends. Long story short, their credit is shot so they are forced to either purchase car by cash ( they seemingly can't ) or go to one of those places that will give them a car loan at ridiculous rate and installed with gizmos to allow easy repossession once payment is missed. << What needs to happen is better consumer protection to prevent americans buying cars on finance that they are never going to be able to afford. I think you would have everyone and their mother fighting against this saying you need freedom to make stupid decisions. Even I am personally on the fence. You do need better protections, but you need to have an ability to make your choices ( and in US - not having a car is not really a valid solution ).
  - ultrarunner 4y ago
    The solution is probably to work on that very last part
- bentcorner 4y ago
  I'd rather a human was involved in the process. With this all you get is "computer says no" and poof your car is gone. With a human tasked with the repo, at the very least even if "computer says no" to them, they have some leeway (even if it's slim-to-none) in talking to you about it.

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see this as particularly evil. It's just a more efficient of what already happens in terms of care repossession. What needs to happen is better consumer protection to prevent americans buying cars on finance that they are never going to be able to afford.

sokoloff 4y ago
Exactly (on both sides). We should help people to find and choose cars they can afford. And, when someone does not pay as agreed to a significant degree, the more efficient that a repossession can happen, the better a deal can be offered to borrowers who do pay as agreed.
- trelane 4y ago
  > Exactly (on both sides). We should help people to find and choose cars they can afford. I'd personally much prefer to make public transit that is so good that everyone uses it.
  - macinjosh 4y ago
    No such thing exists.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Sure. Make better public transit and many people will choose the null car.
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  In the 1970s my dad found that American car dealerships had no interest in selling small and economical cars at all. Japanese car dealerships have been this way recently, before the pandemic hit we tried to buy a new Honda Fit and had to buy a used one because they had none in inventory because, allegedly, the factory had washed away in a flood but they had a row of 50 CR-Vs made in the same factory. The dealer tried to push us into one of those. The automotive press uncritically reports that American consumers are crazy about huge vehicles but what I've observed is that dealers are crazy about selling huge vehicles. Before the pandemic you would frequently see small cars were selling out as fast they arrived on the lot but dealers would have a sea of huge and expensive vehicles and be offering $8000 or so in incentives to sell them. If small vehicles were really unpopular it would be the other way around. There are rumors that Toyota and Honda would love to kill the Corolla and Civic but the quality of those vehicles is so legendary and the attachment of owners is so fanatical that they know people aren't going to "trade up" but will be paying new car prices for high mileage vehicles.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Your dealer doesn't know what they're talking about, which is par for the course. You couldn't find a Fit because Honda stopped importing them. They were discontinued in the US due to poor sales.
    - PaulHoule 4y ago
      Not in my neighborhood. The Blue Honda Fit is the ideal getaway car in Tompkins County because you could do donuts in somebody's yard and they tell the cops and then they'd have to flag down every 20th car.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        They're great cars, but (unfortunately) compact SUVs are far outselling them. Compare the Fit and HRV sales figures and it's clear why Honda did it.
        20after4 4y ago
        That assumes that sales figures are entirely controlled by demand. The OP points out a perfectly plausible mechanism by which demand is not the only factor affecting sales volume. It's almost certainly true that dealerships will stock what's profitable, customer preferences be damned.
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        This would assume that either the only game in town is Honda or that all the other manufacturers are colluding with Honda. Absent significant evidence, it is safer to assume people’s preferences are causing the lower sales.
        20after4 4y ago
        Where I live, all of the major new car dealerships are owned by the same company. No I'm not making this up: https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/business/2014/10/02/warren-buffett-buying-springfield-car-dealerships/16596321/ https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/business/2014/10/02/w...
makeitdouble 4y ago
You’re giving Ford the benefit of the doubt that it will work as described and won’t be abused. Have they earned that reputation regarding automated systems, and how will they deal with false positive/bugs etc. when the wrong car is repossessed at the worst time for its owner ?
- kube-system 4y ago
  I suspect it would be dealt with in the same way that human error is dealt with today.
  - HarryHirsch 4y ago
    Which means, not at all, look at the recent Hertz case about rental cars reported as stolen and then doubling down, because admitting to problems with the process would mean admitting to criminal intent.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Repos and reporting cars as stolen are two different things.
      - HarryHirsch 4y ago
        The poster was talking about "human error". If you are out of a car because your lender messed up (perhaps intentionally to pocket the late fee) you are in trouble, because everyone needs a vehicle to get to work on time. And of course you have as much recourse against your lender as the people at the receiving end of the Hertz case. Didn't Peter Thiel say you need a seven-figure sum to make the legal system work for you?
        kube-system 4y ago
        I don't disagree with the end point, but I have a hard time understanding why the Hertz case demonstrates that Ford is likely to lie with criminal intent about a mistaken repo. It has literally nothing in common except that it involves a car. If Ford wants to lie about repos or lie about human error, they can do that now, they don't need a computer to do it. The whole damn process is subject to human error as it is today.
kube-system 4y ago
> prevent americans buying cars on finance that they are never going to be able to afford The issue is that "Making finance accessible to low income Americans" and "predatory lending" are approximately two sides of the same coin. And so it is not politically popular.
- KarlKemp 4y ago
  That's part of the narrative for the financial crisis. Even without waging that particular fight, it's important to remember that, for a long time, there were plenty of barriers to full participation that had nothing to do with the individual's ability to afford something. Redlining is probably the best documented of these practices.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Every creditworthiness measure is subject to some bias. Most practical ways of tightening lending is going to end up with some correlative demographic being disproportionately excluded.
- notch898a 4y ago
  Lowering the cost of repossession lowers the risk/cost to lending to low income. It's good for the poor.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Yes, I agree with that.
  - hd95489 4y ago
    In theory it should but I’m practice it probably won’t since the market isn’t actually competitive
macinjosh 4y ago
I can see it now: A cash-strapped, frazzled single-mom parks her car on her driveway to unload groceries, leaving her child in the car seat while she carries bags inside the garage. While the mom is walking toward the door the car repossesses itself and heads back to the dealership, child trapped inside.
- willyt 4y ago
  After this happens the first time they will add some kind of checking mechanism which means you can defeat repossession by putting a doll sitting on some bricks in a child car seat to avoid this happening automatically.
  - macinjosh 4y ago
    haha! At this rate, in the future, fooling an AI will be considered a form of hacking and met with computer fraud and abuse or inauthentic behavior charges.
pengaru 4y ago
> care repossession Does autocorrect make Freudian slips?
throwuwu 4y ago
People are going to use this to steal cars and scam people. It will almost certainly screw up and kill somebody at some point. No amount of new features will ever convince me to buy a car that does this but the people who do buy them will undoubtedly be poor and marginalized and offered a great deal on their financing if they choose the roborepo car.
saxonww 4y ago
I had a different thought - this makes it very appealing to stop selling cars altogether, and only lease or rent them.
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
This. I anecdotally seen this happen to my wife's friends. Long story short, their credit is shot so they are forced to either purchase car by cash ( they seemingly can't ) or go to one of those places that will give them a car loan at ridiculous rate and installed with gizmos to allow easy repossession once payment is missed. << What needs to happen is better consumer protection to prevent americans buying cars on finance that they are never going to be able to afford. I think you would have everyone and their mother fighting against this saying you need freedom to make stupid decisions. Even I am personally on the fence. You do need better protections, but you need to have an ability to make your choices ( and in US - not having a car is not really a valid solution ).
- ultrarunner 4y ago
  The solution is probably to work on that very last part
bentcorner 4y ago
I'd rather a human was involved in the process. With this all you get is "computer says no" and poof your car is gone. With a human tasked with the repo, at the very least even if "computer says no" to them, they have some leeway (even if it's slim-to-none) in talking to you about it.