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That is nonsense. It's like blaming the roads for a car maker mistakes. I would give you that Apple is not third party friendly, but how many hardware vendors

That is nonsense. It's like blaming the roads for a car maker mistakes. I would give you that Apple is not third party friendly, but how many hardware vendors are making hard modifications so third party software runs on their hardware?

bheadmaster 4y ago
If the roads required secret incantations to ensure you don't teleport back to where you started, then your comparison would be fair. Most hardware manufacturers suck in that regard too. That in itself doesn't make Apple any better.
superkuh 4y ago
Not friendly? It's more than that. The processors themselves may be great but the computers are not. The hardware takes short cuts and fails to implement compatible versions of long existing hardware standards because Macs don't need to since everything is proprietary and vertically integrated. It's more like making roads that don't have the normal line markings on them and occasionally have gaps in the parts of the road apple cars don't normally drive on, etc.
- manuelabeledo 4y ago
  Which "hardware standards"? Isn't the M1 an Armv8.5-A? What are we asking for here? I would like to know of a single software vendor, that is not Microsoft, who may have influenced the design choices of a hardware vendor. Because it's not like Linus himself randomly walks into Intel offices to tell them how to get things done.
  - mhh__ 4y ago
    Apple aren't completely compliant with the Arm spec. Probably lots of game mega-companies (influencing GPUs). Arm had special JavaScript instructions for a while. Linus did use to work for transmeta, at least.
    - mrkstu 4y ago
      As far as I'm aware they are strictly a superset- everything required to run a standard ARM binary is there- but there are extra instructions available as well, which shouldn't require any extra coding for Linux to ignore and run as normal.
    - manuelabeledo 4y ago
      > Probably lots of game mega-companies (influencing GPUs). Haven't ever heard of this. > Arm had special JavaScript instructions for a while Which is a design choice. ECMAscript is a standard, and the instruction seems to be a way of making certain conversions faster. From the release document [0]: "Armv8.3-A adds instructions that convert a double-precision floating-point number to a signed 32-bit integer with round towards zero. Where the integer result is outside the range of a signed 32-bit integer (DP float supports integer precision up to 53 bits), the value stored as the result is the integer conversion modulo 232, taking the same sign as the input float." It is not unusual for hardware vendors to include instructions that would make certain common operations faster. That does not mean that software vendors, and in this context, compiler engineers, dictate CPU design choices. [0] https://community.arm.com/arm-community-blogs/b/architectures-and-processors-blog/posts/armv8-a-architecture-2016-additions https://community.arm.com/arm-community-blogs/b/architecture...
- kaba0 4y ago
  As per one of the Asahi linux developers, apple did a great job with allowing third-party OSs to also be installable, made in a way that it is also secure.

bheadmaster 4y ago

If the roads required secret incantations to ensure you don't teleport back to where you started, then your comparison would be fair. Most hardware manufacturers suck in that regard too. That in itself doesn't make Apple any better.

superkuh 4y ago

Not friendly? It's more than that. The processors themselves may be great but the computers are not. The hardware takes short cuts and fails to implement compatible versions of long existing hardware standards because Macs don't need to since everything is proprietary and vertically integrated. It's more like making roads that don't have the normal line markings on them and occasionally have gaps in the parts of the road apple cars don't normally drive on, etc.

manuelabeledo 4y ago
Which "hardware standards"? Isn't the M1 an Armv8.5-A? What are we asking for here? I would like to know of a single software vendor, that is not Microsoft, who may have influenced the design choices of a hardware vendor. Because it's not like Linus himself randomly walks into Intel offices to tell them how to get things done.
- mhh__ 4y ago
  Apple aren't completely compliant with the Arm spec. Probably lots of game mega-companies (influencing GPUs). Arm had special JavaScript instructions for a while. Linus did use to work for transmeta, at least.
  - mrkstu 4y ago
    As far as I'm aware they are strictly a superset- everything required to run a standard ARM binary is there- but there are extra instructions available as well, which shouldn't require any extra coding for Linux to ignore and run as normal.
  - manuelabeledo 4y ago
    > Probably lots of game mega-companies (influencing GPUs). Haven't ever heard of this. > Arm had special JavaScript instructions for a while Which is a design choice. ECMAscript is a standard, and the instruction seems to be a way of making certain conversions faster. From the release document [0]: "Armv8.3-A adds instructions that convert a double-precision floating-point number to a signed 32-bit integer with round towards zero. Where the integer result is outside the range of a signed 32-bit integer (DP float supports integer precision up to 53 bits), the value stored as the result is the integer conversion modulo 232, taking the same sign as the input float." It is not unusual for hardware vendors to include instructions that would make certain common operations faster. That does not mean that software vendors, and in this context, compiler engineers, dictate CPU design choices. [0] https://community.arm.com/arm-community-blogs/b/architectures-and-processors-blog/posts/armv8-a-architecture-2016-additions https://community.arm.com/arm-community-blogs/b/architecture...
kaba0 4y ago
As per one of the Asahi linux developers, apple did a great job with allowing third-party OSs to also be installable, made in a way that it is also secure.