7 ms·

Mind that the page describes a hypothetical update to X. In practical terms, Wayland is X12.

by chungy 4y ago

return_to_monke 4y ago
does Wayland have network transparency tho?
- bitwize 4y ago
  That's what Pipewire and Waypipe are for.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Yet another audio reboot.
- linuxandrew 4y ago
  Network transparency doesn't offer any tangible benefits for a lot of apps and desktop environments because they are drawn with bitmaps and textures rather than vectors. This topic has been done to death for the past decade. VNC and RDP won. X11 was a razor edge case and nothing more.
  - gpderetta 4y ago
    ssh -X is still easier and lighter weight that running a VNC server on any machine I need to run a GUI though. Incidentally at $CURRENT_JOB this happens very often: when WFH, I RDP to a windows machine, form which I VNC to a unix xvnc box form which I ssh -x to my actual dev box. It is amazing that it works at all and it is quite usable!
    - cpach 4y ago
      It is very convenient indeed. No doubt about that part. But it’s not like it’s impossible to find viable alternatives.
    - LinAGKar 4y ago
      For running individual applications over the network, Waypipe might be the way to go, though I haven't tried it.
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    Yet network transparency was the whole point of (and whole reason for the complex byzantine architecture of) X11. So you have to pay the full expensive complexity and asynchronous distributed api tax, and you still have to reimplement half-assed virtual desktop network transparency at another layer.
  - wkat4242 4y ago
    X11 just had a different usecase. It was not meant for internet but for many terminals on the local network. Hence the proto design which didn't consider latency a potential problem.
lloeki 4y ago
That's quite a stretch, Wayland and X (any X, 11 or hypothetical 12) are so vastly different that calling Wayland "the new X" is like calling Quartz "X for macOS".
- em-bee 4y ago
  isn't X11 a full redesign of X10 like Wayland is of X11?
  - stonogo 4y ago
    Not a full redesign. It was sufficiently close that you could compile X10 software and link in -loldX and run it under X11.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    Wayland doesn't inherit any architecture from X. XWayland is just a display server hosted by Wayland same as Exceed or Xorg on MS Windows. This is why X will never die since it can always be run on top of other graphical systems.
- sshine 4y ago
  Yes, but the comparison is still valuable.
- mort96 4y ago
  It's not as far fetched as you'd think. My understanding is that Wayland is a result of X11 developers going together to design a new protocol based on the thoughts and ideas they've had for an "X12" throughout the decades.
  - throw009 4y ago
    [dead]
throwawaylinux 4y ago
Right, the name or any kind of lineage does not matter, Wayland is the X11 successor because it is the current seriously developed and improved open display protocol. Nothing about Wayland stole from X11, has any less legitimacy to be the post-X11 protocol than something called X12, or prevents anybody else from improving X11 or from working on an alternative they call X12 or anything else. I don't know why people get so hung up about this. People including its creators may have been over-optimistic about Wayland, but it was never going to be a case of a weekend hacking binge producing something useful out of the gate (X11 had that distinction because it was entering a very small and very green field). X11 has been used for so long because it is very well supported, robust, and has been extended and improved for decades and most of the remaining problems it has are very hard to solve. And that's exactly why we also didn't see something called X12 happen overnight either. The fact that Wayland has been created and worked on and blessed by a number of X11 alumni did lend it a good amount of credence early on, and one might say gives it the right to be spiritual successor to X11. But really if you censor the names and look at the practical reality rather than sentimentality, Wayland creators and developers have been going down the long difficult road of coming up with something better and nobody else did, so that is really why it is the next X11. Progress may seem slow but it does not stop. Features continue to be added, implementations continue to improve, support continues to expand and its takeover seems almost inevitable at this point. Someone might mention "network transparency" at this point. As far as I've seen from the outside looking in that was never the fundamental requirement of the protocol as far as I can tell. Non-transparent protocol like DRI were never not considered to be X11 by the X11 architects and developers who wrote and merged them, showing they have always been quite willing to step out of rigid dogma and embrace practical application. The original X announcement never said the project was a network transparent window system, it said it was a good-but-not-perfect window system and if a good windows system today does not require network transparent protocol (because users don't care as much as they did back then or because networking can be achieved at other layers) then there is no reason it couldn't be X12. The X12 page linked here enumerates some other X11 features that could be dropped too, I've never seen a reasonable argument for why a network transparent protocol is the be-all and end-all of X.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
steponlego 4y ago
No it's not, it barely does any of the things X11 is useful for.
- bitwize 4y ago
  100% of the developers who know anything about how graphics works under Linux are focusing on Wayland. Development on Xorg is moribund, with only Xwayland getting significant attention. Hint: X was optimized for 1980s graphics, which was 90% simple blits, line draws, and fills mediated by the CPU perhaps with special fixed-function accelerators for those operations. In 2023, graphics is done with the GPU -- period. You post draw commands, geometry, and textures to the GPU via shared memory and let it do the work. Programmable shaders open up vast amounts of capability that X11's graphics primitives just don't get you. So you may be right that Wayland isn't good at what X11 is useful for. But nobody's doing what X11 is useful for today. What people are actually doing, Wayland is excellent at. You will be running a Wayland desktop soon, because toolkit maintainers and distro packagers will simply drop support for X. The Gtk maintainers are already talking about dropping support for X in Gtk+5.
  - steponlego 4y ago
    It doesn’t matter to me if the X.org developers have decided not to do their jobs, which is maintaining X.org. This isn’t proof that X.org is bad, it just shows that giggers who really work for big tech firms shouldn’t also be trusted to maintain Free software. I’ve noticed them slowly trying to ruin X.org for a couple years now, deprecating drivers for no reason whatsoever, etc.
    - Cheeeetah 4y ago
      [dead]
  - arp242 4y ago
    People have been predicting the death of X for about ten years now, ever since Wayland was declared stable. Here you are 6 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13925468 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13925468 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13922499 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13922499 And for all the talk about GPU, it feels significantly slower on my (admittedly not very fast) laptop. Wayland will be the future, I guess, eventually. But X will be around for a long time. GTK 5 is still years away (most aren't even using GTK 4).
mkoubaa 4y ago
Wayland is like the windows Vista of x

Mind that the page describes a hypothetical update to X. In practical terms, Wayland is X12.

by chungy 4y ago

Mind that the page describes a hypothetical update to X. In practical terms, Wayland is X12.

return_to_monke 4y ago

does Wayland have network transparency tho?

bitwize 4y ago
That's what Pipewire and Waypipe are for.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Yet another audio reboot.
linuxandrew 4y ago
Network transparency doesn't offer any tangible benefits for a lot of apps and desktop environments because they are drawn with bitmaps and textures rather than vectors. This topic has been done to death for the past decade. VNC and RDP won. X11 was a razor edge case and nothing more.
- gpderetta 4y ago
  ssh -X is still easier and lighter weight that running a VNC server on any machine I need to run a GUI though. Incidentally at $CURRENT_JOB this happens very often: when WFH, I RDP to a windows machine, form which I VNC to a unix xvnc box form which I ssh -x to my actual dev box. It is amazing that it works at all and it is quite usable!
  - cpach 4y ago
    It is very convenient indeed. No doubt about that part. But it’s not like it’s impossible to find viable alternatives.
  - LinAGKar 4y ago
    For running individual applications over the network, Waypipe might be the way to go, though I haven't tried it.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  Yet network transparency was the whole point of (and whole reason for the complex byzantine architecture of) X11. So you have to pay the full expensive complexity and asynchronous distributed api tax, and you still have to reimplement half-assed virtual desktop network transparency at another layer.
- wkat4242 4y ago
  X11 just had a different usecase. It was not meant for internet but for many terminals on the local network. Hence the proto design which didn't consider latency a potential problem.

lloeki 4y ago

That's quite a stretch, Wayland and X (any X, 11 or hypothetical 12) are so vastly different that calling Wayland "the new X" is like calling Quartz "X for macOS".

em-bee 4y ago
isn't X11 a full redesign of X10 like Wayland is of X11?
- stonogo 4y ago
  Not a full redesign. It was sufficiently close that you could compile X10 software and link in -loldX and run it under X11.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  Wayland doesn't inherit any architecture from X. XWayland is just a display server hosted by Wayland same as Exceed or Xorg on MS Windows. This is why X will never die since it can always be run on top of other graphical systems.
sshine 4y ago
Yes, but the comparison is still valuable.
mort96 4y ago
It's not as far fetched as you'd think. My understanding is that Wayland is a result of X11 developers going together to design a new protocol based on the thoughts and ideas they've had for an "X12" throughout the decades.
- throw009 4y ago
  [dead]

throwawaylinux 4y ago

Right, the name or any kind of lineage does not matter, Wayland is the X11 successor because it is the current seriously developed and improved open display protocol. Nothing about Wayland stole from X11, has any less legitimacy to be the post-X11 protocol than something called X12, or prevents anybody else from improving X11 or from working on an alternative they call X12 or anything else. I don't know why people get so hung up about this. People including its creators may have been over-optimistic about Wayland, but it was never going to be a case of a weekend hacking binge producing something useful out of the gate (X11 had that distinction because it was entering a very small and very green field). X11 has been used for so long because it is very well supported, robust, and has been extended and improved for decades and most of the remaining problems it has are very hard to solve. And that's exactly why we also didn't see something called X12 happen overnight either. The fact that Wayland has been created and worked on and blessed by a number of X11 alumni did lend it a good amount of credence early on, and one might say gives it the right to be spiritual successor to X11. But really if you censor the names and look at the practical reality rather than sentimentality, Wayland creators and developers have been going down the long difficult road of coming up with something better and nobody else did, so that is really why it is the next X11. Progress may seem slow but it does not stop. Features continue to be added, implementations continue to improve, support continues to expand and its takeover seems almost inevitable at this point. Someone might mention "network transparency" at this point. As far as I've seen from the outside looking in that was never the fundamental requirement of the protocol as far as I can tell. Non-transparent protocol like DRI were never not considered to be X11 by the X11 architects and developers who wrote and merged them, showing they have always been quite willing to step out of rigid dogma and embrace practical application. The original X announcement never said the project was a network transparent window system, it said it was a good-but-not-perfect window system and if a good windows system today does not require network transparent protocol (because users don't care as much as they did back then or because networking can be achieved at other layers) then there is no reason it couldn't be X12. The X12 page linked here enumerates some other X11 features that could be dropped too, I've never seen a reasonable argument for why a network transparent protocol is the be-all and end-all of X.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

steponlego 4y ago

No it's not, it barely does any of the things X11 is useful for.

bitwize 4y ago
100% of the developers who know anything about how graphics works under Linux are focusing on Wayland. Development on Xorg is moribund, with only Xwayland getting significant attention. Hint: X was optimized for 1980s graphics, which was 90% simple blits, line draws, and fills mediated by the CPU perhaps with special fixed-function accelerators for those operations. In 2023, graphics is done with the GPU -- period. You post draw commands, geometry, and textures to the GPU via shared memory and let it do the work. Programmable shaders open up vast amounts of capability that X11's graphics primitives just don't get you. So you may be right that Wayland isn't good at what X11 is useful for. But nobody's doing what X11 is useful for today. What people are actually doing, Wayland is excellent at. You will be running a Wayland desktop soon, because toolkit maintainers and distro packagers will simply drop support for X. The Gtk maintainers are already talking about dropping support for X in Gtk+5.
- steponlego 4y ago
  It doesn’t matter to me if the X.org developers have decided not to do their jobs, which is maintaining X.org. This isn’t proof that X.org is bad, it just shows that giggers who really work for big tech firms shouldn’t also be trusted to maintain Free software. I’ve noticed them slowly trying to ruin X.org for a couple years now, deprecating drivers for no reason whatsoever, etc.
  - Cheeeetah 4y ago
    [dead]
- arp242 4y ago
  People have been predicting the death of X for about ten years now, ever since Wayland was declared stable. Here you are 6 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13925468 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13925468 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13922499 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13922499 And for all the talk about GPU, it feels significantly slower on my (admittedly not very fast) laptop. Wayland will be the future, I guess, eventually. But X will be around for a long time. GTK 5 is still years away (most aren't even using GTK 4).

mkoubaa 4y ago

Wayland is like the windows Vista of x