4 ms·

I love the spirit but it won't fix the industry. The money spent is tied in the mega-platforms like Steam, GOG etc. Getting any promo of any kind through these

by keyle 4y ago

I love the spirit but it won't fix the industry. The money spent is tied in the mega-platforms like Steam, GOG etc. Getting any promo of any kind through these platforms, or being ranked high for a few hours, automatically propels the title in sales, regardless of the quality. Count me a cynic at this stage but I have done my share of commercially released indie title, and for one man shows, it's a dry lake for dead fish.

pfisch 4y ago
If you have a field of dreams mentality it certainly is. If you are ready to hustle for marketing your game I disagree. I have launched more small and medium games on Steam than most people, and if you are using the right strategy for the game you're launching you can make decent revenue even if the game sucks. for example: https://store.steampowered.com/app/96100/Defy_Gravity_Extended/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/96100/Defy_Gravity_Extend...
- dipsyduck 4y ago
  Indie dev here. Any chance you could share what the right strategy was for you?
  - pfisch 4y ago
    It really depends on your price point and the game. But assuming very small with little prelaunch marketing you really need to focus on getting on the new & trending list at launch. How do you do that? You want a lot of people to buy the game quickly at launch. The best way to do that is building up wishlists prelaunch. That has organic second order effects that are helpful, but there are other ways to get lots of sales at launch... https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2020/12/04/report-rnc-spent-more-than-300000-on-donald-trump-jrs-new-book/?sh=30791abc6fe7 https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2020/12/04/report-...
  - pfisch 4y ago
    Assuming your game is coming out on switch there is almost certainly tons of money to be made by constantly deal discounting a game to 50 cents or less. When this used to be allowed on Steam we made over a million dollars a year deep discounting tiny games. The market size of gamers with almost no money is endless.
    - dleslie 4y ago
      Prior to "Buy, Try, Return" the sub-dollar games were pure joy. I didn't care that some were shit; most were more than enjoyable enough to satisfy spending a few quarters on them for a brief period. What I didn't like is that they stuck around my steam library. What I wanted was to throw some quarters at a short-lived arcade experience. I didn't want my library polluted with shovelware.
      - Entinel 4y ago
        This seems like a molehill made into a mountain. Just make a collection in your Steam library, dump them all in there, and keep it hidden.
      - aplummer 4y ago
        Can’t you just right click and hide it
- spinlock_ 4y ago
  A bit offtopic, but considering your approach, do you use a game engine ala Unity to create your games as fast as possible or do you create your own little engine?
  - pfisch 4y ago
    I don't make tiny games really. Defy gravity is the only small game I ever made. I make bigger games. But the answer is use an engine. I used to both buy the rights and lease the rights to tons of small games though and then release them on steam. They were all made in an engine(unity, rpgmaker, xna, etc) It is never faster to rebuild the wheel.
bob1029 4y ago
I'm more interested in making a game so good that millions of gamers will willingly crawl through proverbial broken glass to participate in the experience. Think of games like PUBG - which was a horrific performance/laggy mess at launch but the gameplay was so novel that everyone put up with it and it went viral overnight. I don't need some 3rd party platform to sugar coat my creative experience. If it's good, it will ship of its own accord.
- pfisch 4y ago
  The world is not the field of dreams. Don't move forward with a plan like this. Pubg was made by an extremely well known modder with a huge following. So many people have the mistaken impression that marketing doesn't matter. There is a reason companies like Google can make billions of dollars a year selling ads. It is because marketing is actually incredibly important.
  - bob1029 4y ago
    > The world is not the field of dreams. Don't move forward with a plan like this. This is like rocket fuel for me. Thank you.
    - meheleventyone 4y ago
      Making the best game you can is table stakes. To get those gamers crawling through glass you need them to know it exists.
  - urthor 4y ago
    Extremely well known and experienced modder, PLUS a highly competent Korean game development studio. So essentially, AA production values and a highly talented game designer who'd perfected the gameplay formula.
- alar44 4y ago
  [dead]
- mdorazio 4y ago
bruce511 4y ago
The industry doesn't need fixing. It's working perfectly well. Working hard, very hard, producing something means nothing. As a producer you have no rights. You are making something that exists in an absolute sea of similar hard work. A market where supply stunningly overwhelms demand. This is to be expected. When I was 11 years old I was playing games, dreaming of being a programmer. I picked up a book and started learning. The next 6 years were mostly spent writing games. For reasons that won't shock you I didn't immediately think of writing a new spreadsheet program. The one exception was a program I wrote for school - and it failed. People write games because it's fun writing a game. Because it's a good way to learn how to write code. Because one's immediate circle are impressed. But the market for indie games is tiny. And every wannabee programmer is making them. Somewhere along the way you discover the laws of supply and demand. You'll also discover that a business is one part product, one part support, three parts marketing. Marketing is waaaay more valuable, and important, than product. Sure there are exceptions. There are stories of some random game with no marketing going viral. It happens. There are also stories of people winning the lottery. One of those is more likely. The indie game market works completely as designed. Low startup costs. Accessible to anyone. A fun way to get into programming. A cool way to impress your friends. A fantastic hobby where you can have more fun in the process than the result. Don't try and "fix it". It's not broken.
- plufz 4y ago
  You don’t think there is anything broken when 3/5 parts of the project budget should be marketing and only 1/5 in creating the product? I’ve worked in advertising and I think that sounds broken.
  - Jensson 4y ago
    Who said that games should only spend 1/5 creating the product?
    - plufz 4y ago
      The parent "You'll also discover that a business is one part product, one part support, three parts marketing."
langsoul-com 4y ago
Indie games HAVE made it on those platforms though? If they were actively sabotaging games, then sure, that's true. But most platforms have a vested interest in good recommendation systems. Think steam for you. It's more the cruel and brutal reality of creative fields, only a very small number ever make it.
ghostDancer 4y ago
Recently I spoke with a dev that was about to launch a game in steam and itch I asked her where She would prefer people to buy it, although She said itch was better for them but they preferred Steam that way they would get a better numbers and a bigger promotion.

by keyle 4y ago

pfisch 4y ago

If you have a field of dreams mentality it certainly is. If you are ready to hustle for marketing your game I disagree. I have launched more small and medium games on Steam than most people, and if you are using the right strategy for the game you're launching you can make decent revenue even if the game sucks. for example: https://store.steampowered.com/app/96100/Defy_Gravity_Extended/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/96100/Defy_Gravity_Extend...

dipsyduck 4y ago
Indie dev here. Any chance you could share what the right strategy was for you?
- pfisch 4y ago
  It really depends on your price point and the game. But assuming very small with little prelaunch marketing you really need to focus on getting on the new & trending list at launch. How do you do that? You want a lot of people to buy the game quickly at launch. The best way to do that is building up wishlists prelaunch. That has organic second order effects that are helpful, but there are other ways to get lots of sales at launch... https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2020/12/04/report-rnc-spent-more-than-300000-on-donald-trump-jrs-new-book/?sh=30791abc6fe7 https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2020/12/04/report-...
- pfisch 4y ago
  Assuming your game is coming out on switch there is almost certainly tons of money to be made by constantly deal discounting a game to 50 cents or less. When this used to be allowed on Steam we made over a million dollars a year deep discounting tiny games. The market size of gamers with almost no money is endless.
  - dleslie 4y ago
    Prior to "Buy, Try, Return" the sub-dollar games were pure joy. I didn't care that some were shit; most were more than enjoyable enough to satisfy spending a few quarters on them for a brief period. What I didn't like is that they stuck around my steam library. What I wanted was to throw some quarters at a short-lived arcade experience. I didn't want my library polluted with shovelware.
    - Entinel 4y ago
      This seems like a molehill made into a mountain. Just make a collection in your Steam library, dump them all in there, and keep it hidden.
    - aplummer 4y ago
      Can’t you just right click and hide it
spinlock_ 4y ago
A bit offtopic, but considering your approach, do you use a game engine ala Unity to create your games as fast as possible or do you create your own little engine?
- pfisch 4y ago
  I don't make tiny games really. Defy gravity is the only small game I ever made. I make bigger games. But the answer is use an engine. I used to both buy the rights and lease the rights to tons of small games though and then release them on steam. They were all made in an engine(unity, rpgmaker, xna, etc) It is never faster to rebuild the wheel.

bob1029 4y ago

I'm more interested in making a game so good that millions of gamers will willingly crawl through proverbial broken glass to participate in the experience. Think of games like PUBG - which was a horrific performance/laggy mess at launch but the gameplay was so novel that everyone put up with it and it went viral overnight. I don't need some 3rd party platform to sugar coat my creative experience. If it's good, it will ship of its own accord.

pfisch 4y ago
The world is not the field of dreams. Don't move forward with a plan like this. Pubg was made by an extremely well known modder with a huge following. So many people have the mistaken impression that marketing doesn't matter. There is a reason companies like Google can make billions of dollars a year selling ads. It is because marketing is actually incredibly important.
- bob1029 4y ago
  > The world is not the field of dreams. Don't move forward with a plan like this. This is like rocket fuel for me. Thank you.
  - meheleventyone 4y ago
    Making the best game you can is table stakes. To get those gamers crawling through glass you need them to know it exists.
- urthor 4y ago
  Extremely well known and experienced modder, PLUS a highly competent Korean game development studio. So essentially, AA production values and a highly talented game designer who'd perfected the gameplay formula.
alar44 4y ago
[dead]
mdorazio 4y ago

bruce511 4y ago

The industry doesn't need fixing. It's working perfectly well. Working hard, very hard, producing something means nothing. As a producer you have no rights. You are making something that exists in an absolute sea of similar hard work. A market where supply stunningly overwhelms demand. This is to be expected. When I was 11 years old I was playing games, dreaming of being a programmer. I picked up a book and started learning. The next 6 years were mostly spent writing games. For reasons that won't shock you I didn't immediately think of writing a new spreadsheet program. The one exception was a program I wrote for school - and it failed. People write games because it's fun writing a game. Because it's a good way to learn how to write code. Because one's immediate circle are impressed. But the market for indie games is tiny. And every wannabee programmer is making them. Somewhere along the way you discover the laws of supply and demand. You'll also discover that a business is one part product, one part support, three parts marketing. Marketing is waaaay more valuable, and important, than product. Sure there are exceptions. There are stories of some random game with no marketing going viral. It happens. There are also stories of people winning the lottery. One of those is more likely. The indie game market works completely as designed. Low startup costs. Accessible to anyone. A fun way to get into programming. A cool way to impress your friends. A fantastic hobby where you can have more fun in the process than the result. Don't try and "fix it". It's not broken.

plufz 4y ago
You don’t think there is anything broken when 3/5 parts of the project budget should be marketing and only 1/5 in creating the product? I’ve worked in advertising and I think that sounds broken.
- Jensson 4y ago
  Who said that games should only spend 1/5 creating the product?
  - plufz 4y ago
    The parent "You'll also discover that a business is one part product, one part support, three parts marketing."

langsoul-com 4y ago

Indie games HAVE made it on those platforms though? If they were actively sabotaging games, then sure, that's true. But most platforms have a vested interest in good recommendation systems. Think steam for you. It's more the cruel and brutal reality of creative fields, only a very small number ever make it.

ghostDancer 4y ago

Recently I spoke with a dev that was about to launch a game in steam and itch I asked her where She would prefer people to buy it, although She said itch was better for them but they preferred Steam that way they would get a better numbers and a bigger promotion.