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I suspect the terms of service for the Kindle lets Amazon do this. It's been clear for a long time now that if you use a Kindle you don't "own" the content you

I suspect the terms of service for the Kindle lets Amazon do this. It's been clear for a long time now that if you use a Kindle you don't "own" the content you read on it. Very, very clear. Ironically I think it all started when an Orwell book was taken down. It's hard to feel sorry for Kindle buyers when this stuff has been known for a long time.

zaphod12 4y ago
Yeah it was 1984. Which was almost too much and i don't know nobody internally balked at it simply to refuse being that deeply ironic. Or they thought it was hilarious, which I suppose is a possibility.
- twblalock 4y ago
  Pretty dumb stuff happens at big companies all the time, although this is a rare case of it being both public and hilarious. This whole book takedown thing is another dumb move that probably happened because someone thought it was a good idea to zealously enforce an exclusivity contract without realizing what would happen -- especially not realizing the possibility that third parties might put books on torrent sites in order to hurt the authors and get their books removed from Kindles. When big companies do dumb things, people have a tendency to vastly overestimate the amount of thought and intention that went into it. This was probably a dumbass move by some mid-level person who thought they were helping.
stavros 4y ago
I do, however, own the books I pirate. The choice is pretty clear for me.
- fullstop 4y ago
  Honestly, this is my feeling on the matter. I definitely buy books from the Kindle store as it is convenient and the author(s) get paid. If Amazon decides to mess around with my licenses or take books away, I will just take to the high seas to replace them. In the mean time, though, I do feel like I'm doing the "right thing".
  - kilolima 4y ago
    You're not doing the right thing if you're helping to enforce DRM. This removes power from both authors and readers to Amazon's benefit. If you want to do the right thing, buy a physical book and then pirate the ebook.
    - fullstop 4y ago
      I don't want a physical object, though. With the way I'm doing it the author receives payment and I get to read their book without having to find space on a bookshelf or carry a bunch of bulky books with me while I travel. Clearly there are already ways to remove the DRM, and the lifespan of a Kindle is decades so they will not easily be able to add new DRM to the old hardware. In my opinion, it's roughly analogous to Steam but it moves at a glacial pace.
      - goosedragons 4y ago
        They're slowly closing DRM loopholes and getting rid of old hardware. Older versions of Kindle for PC that allow you to remove DRM won't let you download books published after Jan. 3rd 2023, they won't let you use the download and transfer feature to download Kindle Unlimited books any more either. They've given 1st gen Kindle owners/users new hardware, offered discounts to 2nd Gen owners, etc.
        int_19h 4y ago
        I'm genuinely curious as to why Amazon Kindle DRM seems to be so difficult. Whenever I look at the current state of affairs to try and backup my book collection, I find a lot of howtos on how to do it, all of them broken, with people discussing when such-and-such update broke it etc. And on the other hand, deDRMing and backing up stuff from Amazon Video is trivial with e.g. StreamFab. You'd expect it to be the other way around.
        fullstop 4y ago
        Amazon doesn't have control of all of the devices which support Amazon Video. The revenue gained from those devices is likely greater than the revenue lost from people pirating content who would actually pay for it.
AlexandrB 4y ago
I'm not sure but parent might be talking about the contract between Amazon and the author of the book, since violation of the terms of that contract is the rationale Amazon is using to take down these books. I.e. how can Amazon claim that the author violated their exclusivity agreement when the author did not consent to the book being released on The Pirate Bay and such a release was the result of copyright violation by a third party.
duskwuff 4y ago
You're barking up the wrong tree here. 1) The Terms of Service for usage of Kindle devices are not relevant to a contract between Amazon and an author whose work is published through Kindle Unlimited. 2) Kindle Unlimited is a "all you can eat" subscription service. Users of the service explicitly do not own the books they download and read through it, just like you don't own the music you listen to on Spotify or whatnot.
- twblalock 4y ago
  > 1) The Terms of Service for usage of Kindle devices are not relevant to a contract between Amazon and an author whose work is published through Kindle Unlimited. No, but it's definitely relevant for Kindle users who purchased a book only to see it disappear from their devices!
  - gambiting 4y ago
    This has literally only ever happened once. Among millions of titles available on Kindle, a book was only remotely pulled from user's devices once. I'm not saying this was ok, I'm saying that clearly the issue is completely blown out of proportion.
    - beefman 4y ago
      It's happened more than that, because an Orwell title was mentioned here and it happened to me years ago with a title from another author. (This was before Unlimited existed and I've never used Unlimited.) Amazon also removed an anime I purchased in 2019. For a while it said it wasn't available to watch in my location. As of today it's trying to sell it to me again!
      - daveoc64 4y ago
        It's never happened since - you are almost certainly mistaken. This is a common problem with digital storefronts - people think they bought something from store X, but they actually got it from store Y or on a different account. Amazon remembers every order you've ever placed - including digital ones. Check whether you can find the order in your order history - if you can see the order, but not the item, Amazon customer support will add it to your account again.
jeroenhd 4y ago
> It's been clear for a long time now that if you use a Kindle you don't "own" the content you read on it. Not everyone reads tech news. As long as Amazon uses "buy" rather than "rent" or "subscribe" I don't think most people will notice. This sounds like something some government somewhere could go after Amazon for, but I very much doubt that it'll happen any time soon.
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  They do use 'subscribe' for Kindle Unlimited.
daveoc64 4y ago
The Kindle came out in 2007 - nearly 16 years ago. The "1984" incident happened in 2009 - nearly 14 years ago. Amazon modified their terms and conditions to make it difficult for them to do something like that again. I'm not sure that one example means anything in 2023.

zaphod12 4y ago

Yeah it was 1984. Which was almost too much and i don't know nobody internally balked at it simply to refuse being that deeply ironic. Or they thought it was hilarious, which I suppose is a possibility.

twblalock 4y ago
Pretty dumb stuff happens at big companies all the time, although this is a rare case of it being both public and hilarious. This whole book takedown thing is another dumb move that probably happened because someone thought it was a good idea to zealously enforce an exclusivity contract without realizing what would happen -- especially not realizing the possibility that third parties might put books on torrent sites in order to hurt the authors and get their books removed from Kindles. When big companies do dumb things, people have a tendency to vastly overestimate the amount of thought and intention that went into it. This was probably a dumbass move by some mid-level person who thought they were helping.

stavros 4y ago

I do, however, own the books I pirate. The choice is pretty clear for me.

fullstop 4y ago
Honestly, this is my feeling on the matter. I definitely buy books from the Kindle store as it is convenient and the author(s) get paid. If Amazon decides to mess around with my licenses or take books away, I will just take to the high seas to replace them. In the mean time, though, I do feel like I'm doing the "right thing".
- kilolima 4y ago
  You're not doing the right thing if you're helping to enforce DRM. This removes power from both authors and readers to Amazon's benefit. If you want to do the right thing, buy a physical book and then pirate the ebook.
  - fullstop 4y ago
    I don't want a physical object, though. With the way I'm doing it the author receives payment and I get to read their book without having to find space on a bookshelf or carry a bunch of bulky books with me while I travel. Clearly there are already ways to remove the DRM, and the lifespan of a Kindle is decades so they will not easily be able to add new DRM to the old hardware. In my opinion, it's roughly analogous to Steam but it moves at a glacial pace.
    - goosedragons 4y ago
      They're slowly closing DRM loopholes and getting rid of old hardware. Older versions of Kindle for PC that allow you to remove DRM won't let you download books published after Jan. 3rd 2023, they won't let you use the download and transfer feature to download Kindle Unlimited books any more either. They've given 1st gen Kindle owners/users new hardware, offered discounts to 2nd Gen owners, etc.
      - int_19h 4y ago
        I'm genuinely curious as to why Amazon Kindle DRM seems to be so difficult. Whenever I look at the current state of affairs to try and backup my book collection, I find a lot of howtos on how to do it, all of them broken, with people discussing when such-and-such update broke it etc. And on the other hand, deDRMing and backing up stuff from Amazon Video is trivial with e.g. StreamFab. You'd expect it to be the other way around.
        fullstop 4y ago
        Amazon doesn't have control of all of the devices which support Amazon Video. The revenue gained from those devices is likely greater than the revenue lost from people pirating content who would actually pay for it.

AlexandrB 4y ago

I'm not sure but parent might be talking about the contract between Amazon and the author of the book, since violation of the terms of that contract is the rationale Amazon is using to take down these books. I.e. how can Amazon claim that the author violated their exclusivity agreement when the author did not consent to the book being released on The Pirate Bay and such a release was the result of copyright violation by a third party.

duskwuff 4y ago

You're barking up the wrong tree here. 1) The Terms of Service for usage of Kindle devices are not relevant to a contract between Amazon and an author whose work is published through Kindle Unlimited. 2) Kindle Unlimited is a "all you can eat" subscription service. Users of the service explicitly do not own the books they download and read through it, just like you don't own the music you listen to on Spotify or whatnot.

twblalock 4y ago
> 1) The Terms of Service for usage of Kindle devices are not relevant to a contract between Amazon and an author whose work is published through Kindle Unlimited. No, but it's definitely relevant for Kindle users who purchased a book only to see it disappear from their devices!
- gambiting 4y ago
  This has literally only ever happened once. Among millions of titles available on Kindle, a book was only remotely pulled from user's devices once. I'm not saying this was ok, I'm saying that clearly the issue is completely blown out of proportion.
  - beefman 4y ago
    It's happened more than that, because an Orwell title was mentioned here and it happened to me years ago with a title from another author. (This was before Unlimited existed and I've never used Unlimited.) Amazon also removed an anime I purchased in 2019. For a while it said it wasn't available to watch in my location. As of today it's trying to sell it to me again!
    - daveoc64 4y ago
      It's never happened since - you are almost certainly mistaken. This is a common problem with digital storefronts - people think they bought something from store X, but they actually got it from store Y or on a different account. Amazon remembers every order you've ever placed - including digital ones. Check whether you can find the order in your order history - if you can see the order, but not the item, Amazon customer support will add it to your account again.

jeroenhd 4y ago

> It's been clear for a long time now that if you use a Kindle you don't "own" the content you read on it. Not everyone reads tech news. As long as Amazon uses "buy" rather than "rent" or "subscribe" I don't think most people will notice. This sounds like something some government somewhere could go after Amazon for, but I very much doubt that it'll happen any time soon.

lazyasciiart 4y ago
They do use 'subscribe' for Kindle Unlimited.

daveoc64 4y ago

The Kindle came out in 2007 - nearly 16 years ago. The "1984" incident happened in 2009 - nearly 14 years ago. Amazon modified their terms and conditions to make it difficult for them to do something like that again. I'm not sure that one example means anything in 2023.