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> A German parliamentary inquiry held a hundred witness hearings and reviewed nearly four hundred thousand pages of documents, concluding that the behavior of W

> A German parliamentary inquiry held a hundred witness hearings and reviewed nearly four hundred thousand pages of documents, concluding that the behavior of Wirecard and its enablers was “the largest financial scandal in the history of the Federal Republic of Germany.” The report blamed “collective supervisory failure,” “the longing for a digital national champion,” and “the German mentality toward non-Germans”—specifically, Quadir and McCrum. “German supervisory authorities are not fit for the ‘Internet Age,’ ” the report concluded. It's not just “the longing for a digital national champion”, but also the idea that american startups are more successful because they are more ruthless, more willing to lie, to commit fraud, an idea which I also see on this forum.

rcme 4y ago
American start ups are definitely more willing to ignore regulations in the name of growth, but not sure that’s fraud.
- carlmr 4y ago
  Selling self-driving technology with a next-year time horizon for 7 years seems quite fraudulent.
  - boc 4y ago
    Except it's hard NOT to see a self-driving car (including cars without anyone inside) if you walk around SF these days. Please don't conflate Musk and Tesla with the Waymos of the world.
    - dghlsakjg 4y ago
      Please don't conflate SF with the rest of the world. Incredibly rare to see self driving cars outside of the Bay Area. Up here in Canada I have my doubts about ANY self driving car achieving true autonomy in our conditions, and I live in the part that doesn't see much snow.
- WeylandYutani 4y ago
  Cough Uber cough Airbnb.
  - rcme 4y ago
    What part of taking an Uber is fraudulent?
    - lmm 4y ago
      The part where they tell you the driver has been carefully vetted and they haven't been?
    - WeylandYutani 4y ago
      They were caught bribing politicians and circumventing labour laws. Which brings me to my point: adapt to local circumstances don't assume society will adapt to yours because they've been around a thousand years longer and sooner or later you will be crushed.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
> “the longing for a digital national champion,” Meh, these seem like lame excuses for what is basically blatant corruption at the level of government authorities. Try not paying your taxes in Germany as a small time freelancer and watch how fast the tax man comes after you. If I tell him, "please look the other way, I'm trying to build you a national tech champion" I'm pretty sure it's not gonna fly. Probably because I'm not politically connected well enough at the higher echelons like wirecard was. Hey Germany, if you're so longing for a digital champion, why aren't you massively lowering taxes for start-ups, flooding them with funding and cutting their red tape, instead of aiding the corrupt enterprises of well connected crooks? >“the German mentality toward non-Germans” The truth has been spoken. This skepticism towards anything non-German is one of the reasons the SW sector and digitalization in Germany is in such a dire shape. >“German supervisory authorities are not fit for the ‘Internet Age" Here here. You can add to that the courts too and the politicians who need to have their "internet printed".
- amadeuspagel 4y ago
  How many people do you think Wirecard bribed? Why did everyone else look away?
  - luckylion 4y ago
    For the same reason why they all looked away when Scholz was bribed by Warburg: they were following orders.
  - belter 4y ago
    "...Russian consulate in Munich, where he held meetings with spies and government officials..." "Wirecard scandal: German Finance Minister questioned" - https://www.dw.com/en/wirecard-scandal-german-finance-minister-olaf-scholz-denies-responsibility/a-57297062 https://www.dw.com/en/wirecard-scandal-german-finance-minist...
- vkou 4y ago
  > Hey Germany, if you're so longing for a digital champion, why aren't you massively lowering taxes for start-ups, flooding them with funding and cutting their red tape, instead of aiding the corrupt enterprises of well connected crooks? What makes you think opening a firehouse of funding isn't going to be immediately siphoned up by corrupt enterprises of well-connected crooks?
ilyt 4y ago
> but also the idea that american startups are more successful because they are more ruthless, more willing to lie, to commit fraud, an idea which I also see on this forum. The US law allows for more so that's not exactly unjustified...
A_D_E_P_T 4y ago
> “collective supervisory failure,” > “the longing for a digital national champion,” Ultimately, you get what you incentivize. The German tax regime is not friendly to start-ups and entrepreneurs, to put it very mildly, and infrastructure is lacking. Fertile ground it sure isn't. (There are other issues, like a digital economy that's not concentrated in one region but is diffuse around the entire nation -- and public attitudes, which are best described as being "staid," and favor employment at large existing firms or at research institutions.) Legitimate entrepreneurs -- especially the good ones with foresight and low time preference -- will leave for greener pastures. And you can bet your last Euro that many of those who remain are grifters merely preying upon “the longing for a digital national champion.”
- zwieback 4y ago
  Ok, so it seems like the German preference for stability over risk-taking is still the same as when I left Germany in the 90s. I only worked at a few startups and have been at a stable company for 20 yrs now. What I'm noticing is that we buy a lot of German motors, valves, optics, automation equipment. Even things like terminal blocks, hand tools, etc. etc. We all prefer them even to American brands, much less Asian. My well-off coworkers drive German cars unless they are pickup truck guys. Maybe it's good to have a high-power economy based on conservative tech alongside our US high-risk but ultimately amateurish approach. Best of both worlds. Having said that I would never consider going [edit: move] back to Germany, for different reasons.
  - jaspa99 4y ago
    May I ask the reasons why you will not set foot in Germany again?
    - zwieback 4y ago
      Oh, I visit regularly, should have clarified, but would not move back there. I very much enjoy the lack of bureaucracy and the amount of open space here in the NW of the US.
  - 4y ago
jakzurr 4y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirecard https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirecard
rossdavidh 4y ago
You're not totally wrong, but it's a bit more nuanced than that. What I see, from living in America and from spending a very small amount of time in Germany, is that in Germany the rules are the rules, whereas in America it is not quite like that. Small companies, especially new ones, employ "better to ask forgiveness than permission" a lot. However, as they grow, they are required to ask forgiveness, and this is given, but then you have to start following rules which are not enforced (usually) on small startups. Some, such as Uber/Lyft, grow so quickly that they can achieve some size before finding out that cities and states can impose requirements on you, but in the end regulation does come for them (perhaps not perfectly, but much more than when they were starting up). In Germany my impression is more "get your ducks in a row before you startup", which does make sense and has some advantages. I don't even think that it is that much easier to startup in the U.S., if all the rules (tax and otherwise) were enforced all the time. However, because in the U.S. you aren't (usually) as harshly punished for not having your ducks in a regulatory row before starting, the company is able to get big enough to afford accountants, lawyers, etc. I'm not saying the American "system" here is perfect, or even really a designed system at all, but it does have the effect (normally) of requiring more regulatory compliance as you grow in size, much like we as individuals are allowed to do things when 2 years old that we are sanctioned for if we do them when adults. All varies a lot by sector, etc. of course, but that's the general trend.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >spending a very small amount of time in Germany, is that in Germany the rules are the rules, whereas in America it is not quite like that That's the impression you'll get as a foreigner who spent a little time in Germany, but if you're long timer deep in the system you'll realize that "rules are rules" is only true for the little guy whereas the wealthy elite and old-money individuals and companies can and do bend and break the rules with the help of regulators, politicians and courts all the time who kindly look the other way because they are directly or indirectly invested in those companies or tied to the individuals who run the companies. High level corruption in Germany is rampant and the scandals are numerous. VW, Wirecard, Deutche, Axel Springer, real estate giants, basically pick any rich big German company, chances are they have powerful friends in politics greasing the gears for them making sure the regulatory authorities are always looking the other way.
tannhaeuser 4y ago
Idk about ruthless, but clearly the market size, investment possibilities, the labor and tax laws and maybe also immigration laws are favorable to US startups. Biggest fraud in German history I don't know either, what about the Hitler diaries or the (political instrumentalization of the) Reichstag fire, on this date 90 years ago btw?
- amadeuspagel 4y ago
  > Clearly the market size, investment possibilities, the labor and tax laws and maybe also immigration laws are favorable to US startups. Sure. Of course, many of these things are the responsibility of german legislators, and their longing for a german tech success story might be at least in part explained by a desire to avoid thinking about them.

rcme 4y ago

American start ups are definitely more willing to ignore regulations in the name of growth, but not sure that’s fraud.

carlmr 4y ago
Selling self-driving technology with a next-year time horizon for 7 years seems quite fraudulent.
- boc 4y ago
  Except it's hard NOT to see a self-driving car (including cars without anyone inside) if you walk around SF these days. Please don't conflate Musk and Tesla with the Waymos of the world.
  - dghlsakjg 4y ago
    Please don't conflate SF with the rest of the world. Incredibly rare to see self driving cars outside of the Bay Area. Up here in Canada I have my doubts about ANY self driving car achieving true autonomy in our conditions, and I live in the part that doesn't see much snow.
WeylandYutani 4y ago
Cough Uber cough Airbnb.
- rcme 4y ago
  What part of taking an Uber is fraudulent?
  - lmm 4y ago
    The part where they tell you the driver has been carefully vetted and they haven't been?
  - WeylandYutani 4y ago
    They were caught bribing politicians and circumventing labour laws. Which brings me to my point: adapt to local circumstances don't assume society will adapt to yours because they've been around a thousand years longer and sooner or later you will be crushed.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

> “the longing for a digital national champion,” Meh, these seem like lame excuses for what is basically blatant corruption at the level of government authorities. Try not paying your taxes in Germany as a small time freelancer and watch how fast the tax man comes after you. If I tell him, "please look the other way, I'm trying to build you a national tech champion" I'm pretty sure it's not gonna fly. Probably because I'm not politically connected well enough at the higher echelons like wirecard was. Hey Germany, if you're so longing for a digital champion, why aren't you massively lowering taxes for start-ups, flooding them with funding and cutting their red tape, instead of aiding the corrupt enterprises of well connected crooks? >“the German mentality toward non-Germans” The truth has been spoken. This skepticism towards anything non-German is one of the reasons the SW sector and digitalization in Germany is in such a dire shape. >“German supervisory authorities are not fit for the ‘Internet Age" Here here. You can add to that the courts too and the politicians who need to have their "internet printed".

amadeuspagel 4y ago
How many people do you think Wirecard bribed? Why did everyone else look away?
- luckylion 4y ago
  For the same reason why they all looked away when Scholz was bribed by Warburg: they were following orders.
- belter 4y ago
  "...Russian consulate in Munich, where he held meetings with spies and government officials..." "Wirecard scandal: German Finance Minister questioned" - https://www.dw.com/en/wirecard-scandal-german-finance-minister-olaf-scholz-denies-responsibility/a-57297062 https://www.dw.com/en/wirecard-scandal-german-finance-minist...
vkou 4y ago
> Hey Germany, if you're so longing for a digital champion, why aren't you massively lowering taxes for start-ups, flooding them with funding and cutting their red tape, instead of aiding the corrupt enterprises of well connected crooks? What makes you think opening a firehouse of funding isn't going to be immediately siphoned up by corrupt enterprises of well-connected crooks?

ilyt 4y ago

> but also the idea that american startups are more successful because they are more ruthless, more willing to lie, to commit fraud, an idea which I also see on this forum. The US law allows for more so that's not exactly unjustified...

A_D_E_P_T 4y ago

> “collective supervisory failure,” > “the longing for a digital national champion,” Ultimately, you get what you incentivize. The German tax regime is not friendly to start-ups and entrepreneurs, to put it very mildly, and infrastructure is lacking. Fertile ground it sure isn't. (There are other issues, like a digital economy that's not concentrated in one region but is diffuse around the entire nation -- and public attitudes, which are best described as being "staid," and favor employment at large existing firms or at research institutions.) Legitimate entrepreneurs -- especially the good ones with foresight and low time preference -- will leave for greener pastures. And you can bet your last Euro that many of those who remain are grifters merely preying upon “the longing for a digital national champion.”

zwieback 4y ago
Ok, so it seems like the German preference for stability over risk-taking is still the same as when I left Germany in the 90s. I only worked at a few startups and have been at a stable company for 20 yrs now. What I'm noticing is that we buy a lot of German motors, valves, optics, automation equipment. Even things like terminal blocks, hand tools, etc. etc. We all prefer them even to American brands, much less Asian. My well-off coworkers drive German cars unless they are pickup truck guys. Maybe it's good to have a high-power economy based on conservative tech alongside our US high-risk but ultimately amateurish approach. Best of both worlds. Having said that I would never consider going [edit: move] back to Germany, for different reasons.
- jaspa99 4y ago
  May I ask the reasons why you will not set foot in Germany again?
  - zwieback 4y ago
    Oh, I visit regularly, should have clarified, but would not move back there. I very much enjoy the lack of bureaucracy and the amount of open space here in the NW of the US.
- 4y ago

jakzurr 4y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirecard https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirecard

rossdavidh 4y ago

You're not totally wrong, but it's a bit more nuanced than that. What I see, from living in America and from spending a very small amount of time in Germany, is that in Germany the rules are the rules, whereas in America it is not quite like that. Small companies, especially new ones, employ "better to ask forgiveness than permission" a lot. However, as they grow, they are required to ask forgiveness, and this is given, but then you have to start following rules which are not enforced (usually) on small startups. Some, such as Uber/Lyft, grow so quickly that they can achieve some size before finding out that cities and states can impose requirements on you, but in the end regulation does come for them (perhaps not perfectly, but much more than when they were starting up). In Germany my impression is more "get your ducks in a row before you startup", which does make sense and has some advantages. I don't even think that it is that much easier to startup in the U.S., if all the rules (tax and otherwise) were enforced all the time. However, because in the U.S. you aren't (usually) as harshly punished for not having your ducks in a regulatory row before starting, the company is able to get big enough to afford accountants, lawyers, etc. I'm not saying the American "system" here is perfect, or even really a designed system at all, but it does have the effect (normally) of requiring more regulatory compliance as you grow in size, much like we as individuals are allowed to do things when 2 years old that we are sanctioned for if we do them when adults. All varies a lot by sector, etc. of course, but that's the general trend.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>spending a very small amount of time in Germany, is that in Germany the rules are the rules, whereas in America it is not quite like that That's the impression you'll get as a foreigner who spent a little time in Germany, but if you're long timer deep in the system you'll realize that "rules are rules" is only true for the little guy whereas the wealthy elite and old-money individuals and companies can and do bend and break the rules with the help of regulators, politicians and courts all the time who kindly look the other way because they are directly or indirectly invested in those companies or tied to the individuals who run the companies. High level corruption in Germany is rampant and the scandals are numerous. VW, Wirecard, Deutche, Axel Springer, real estate giants, basically pick any rich big German company, chances are they have powerful friends in politics greasing the gears for them making sure the regulatory authorities are always looking the other way.

tannhaeuser 4y ago

Idk about ruthless, but clearly the market size, investment possibilities, the labor and tax laws and maybe also immigration laws are favorable to US startups. Biggest fraud in German history I don't know either, what about the Hitler diaries or the (political instrumentalization of the) Reichstag fire, on this date 90 years ago btw?

amadeuspagel 4y ago
> Clearly the market size, investment possibilities, the labor and tax laws and maybe also immigration laws are favorable to US startups. Sure. Of course, many of these things are the responsibility of german legislators, and their longing for a german tech success story might be at least in part explained by a desire to avoid thinking about them.