4 ms·

> Running in a pack is also just easier, not even considering the wind breaking potential depending upon speed and prevailing breeze. It is worth noting that f

by wging 4y ago

> Running in a pack is also just easier, not even considering the wind breaking potential depending upon speed and prevailing breeze. It is worth noting that for mid-d races it's not just about countering wind, but also air resistance. There is a significant performance impact even if it's not windy. See for instance https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20823445/does-drafting-help-in-running https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20823445/does-draftin...: "Pugh runs some calculations to determine that at 4:30 mile pace, drafting one meter behind another runner on a still day saves about 80% of the energy you'd otherwise spend fighting air resistance. That corresponds to about 1 second per 400 meters at that pace, and more on windy days." (Highly recommend Hutchinson's other work on the running and sports science, btw.) (I am sure you know this. I'm mentioning it for others, because it's applicable to Sowinski's work, far more so than your own pacing for the longer races.)

morepork 4y ago
4:30/mile pace is faster than all but the fastest amateur runners, and the effect would I assume be less at a slower pace. 1s/400m is less than 2 minutes over a marathon, so something, but not a huge amount. 1m behind is also pretty close to be directly behind someone, you'd be liable to kick each other.
- wging 4y ago
  > 4:30/mile pace is faster than all but the fastest amateur runners The article is talking about middle distance running, typically 800m-3000m, not long-distance running. 1s/400m is actually pretty huge in competition. > you'd be liable to kick each other. Front-to-back contact happens sometimes, even in professional races.
  - philipwhiuk 4y ago
    But the parent comment is talking about long distance.
    - wging 4y ago
      I addressed this above: "... because it's applicable to Sowinski's work [meaning middle-distance pacing], far more so than your own pacing for the longer races."
- js2 4y ago
  Track races are often won in photo finishes. Everything matters. And that 2 minutes over the marathon is currently more than the difference between a sub-2 hour marathon (1:59:40) and not (2:01:09): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge
  - philipwhiuk 4y ago
    Nobody but 'the fastest amateurs' is even doing track. And Kipchoge is both the fastest and not an amateur.
- mattkrause 4y ago
  A 4:30 mile is a respectable mile time for a high school boy. It's good enough to be competitive at a state level (4:28 placed 7th in CT this year) but won't have D1 coaches salivating at the mouth.
- TechBro8615 4y ago
  4:30 is not an elite mile pace at any level of male competition except races above 8k. For mid-distance races (typically considered 800m and 1500m, or 1000m indoors or 1600m in Europe outdoors) it would be quite slow. A typical elite (D1 college) 800m time is 1:50, and champions are around 1:40. An above average high schooler recruitable to D3 can run 2:00. D1 recruits typically have mile time of 4:15 or faster. Most high school distance/mid-distance runners compete in 5k in the fall and 1500 or 3k in the spring. D1 recruitable times for those are 15:00-15:30 for 5k (mile pace of 4:50), 3:50-4:00 for 1500 (equivalent of about 4:07 - 4:20 mile time), and 8:30-8:45 for 3k (mile pace of about 4:30). Regarding air resistance and "drafting" off a pacer, this is definitely a real effect, although it's a much bigger deal outdoors especially with wind. Often in mid-distance races, there are multiple rounds and you need to qualify for the next by placing highly (not necessarily the same as "fast") in the prelims - it's common for early rounds to have slow times because of "tactical" races where every runner stays in the pack at a slow pace for 3/4 of the race, and then the "real race" happens on the final lap. source: used to be sort of fast.
  - philipwhiuk 4y ago
    In the real world the entirety of college athletics sits inside 'fastest amateurs'. Anything shorter than a 5K is a blip on the landscape of amateur running.
  - AtlasBarfed 4y ago
    nitpick: 800m world record is 1:40.91 ... the 800 is also not a race where the WR time is challenged on a regular basis. Championship 800m racing is a wait and kick affair which never lends itself to ultrafast times because the first 400 is loafed. The scary thing about David Rudisha's WR set at the 2012 Oly was that it was a solo wire-to-wire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKEOjWEzVGs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKEOjWEzVGs That DOES NOT HAPPEN in championship middle distance racing. Does not happen. Almost all middle distance records are set with precisely controlled tracks, weather, pacers, and racers to provide best conditions and drafting and temperature for the best times. Rudisha showed up a the Olympic Final, threw down a gauntlet to the field, and blew them away. You can see at the 500m mark of the video there were four or five runners who perfectly paced and tactically positioned themselves, where 999/1000 times the leader will fall off and get blown away by the chasers. What happens as a chaser is that instictive additional adrenaline surges as you chase down your quarry, and you're running through a draft for additional momentym. At 500m, Rudisha accelerates and leaves these other runners, who perfectly placed themselves for the usual chasedown, and just leaves them in the dust. Now consider he is losing 1 second a 400m without a draft/rabbit.... Also, I'd like to point out that the 800m is probably the most painful race of the track events. Typically you'll be well into anaerobic debt as you complete the first lap, and the second lap is allllllll pain. A typical 800m racer will hit 500m or so, his body is saying "HOLY SHIT STOP WHAT ARE YOU DOING" and that's when the racer ... has to kick and exert maximal effort for the next 200-300m. Rudisha as I understand wasn't a rift valley tribesman, the usual source of Kenyan elite distance runners who have genetic adaptations to altitude and efficient oxygen use / high VO2. He was a Maasai from the central lowlands. Just an amazing race. Now, I'm also a cynic of Olympic level performance, but that's for another day. RE: D1 recruits at 15:00/5k: the NUTS part of that is that 15:00/5k is barely competitive pace for elite MARATHONs these days (under good conditions like Rotterdam, Chicago, or London). So you get recruited for D1 for running a speed for 3 miles that an elite racer keeps up for 26 miles. Kind of along those lines, a lot of people don't realize how elite rabbits have to be just to run the proper pace for 1/2 to 1/3 the distance. They can't really go under the top 50 in the world to rabbit, otherwise they won't have the reliable talent to run the pace even on a so-so day.
js2 4y ago
By "wind breaking potential" I meant both that from air resistance as well as that from a breeze, but I appreciate the clarification. Even at the marathon distance it matters as we saw with Kipchoge’s Nike sponsored sub-2 run a few years back. Of course, Kipchoge ran that thing at 4:34/mi pace, not far off middle distance race pace!
jamincan 4y ago
I can't remember the source anymore, but I've heard that air resistance becomes a significant factor above roughly 16kph (~6min/mile).

by wging 4y ago

morepork 4y ago

4:30/mile pace is faster than all but the fastest amateur runners, and the effect would I assume be less at a slower pace. 1s/400m is less than 2 minutes over a marathon, so something, but not a huge amount. 1m behind is also pretty close to be directly behind someone, you'd be liable to kick each other.

wging 4y ago
> 4:30/mile pace is faster than all but the fastest amateur runners The article is talking about middle distance running, typically 800m-3000m, not long-distance running. 1s/400m is actually pretty huge in competition. > you'd be liable to kick each other. Front-to-back contact happens sometimes, even in professional races.
- philipwhiuk 4y ago
  But the parent comment is talking about long distance.
  - wging 4y ago
    I addressed this above: "... because it's applicable to Sowinski's work [meaning middle-distance pacing], far more so than your own pacing for the longer races."
js2 4y ago
Track races are often won in photo finishes. Everything matters. And that 2 minutes over the marathon is currently more than the difference between a sub-2 hour marathon (1:59:40) and not (2:01:09): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliud_Kipchoge
- philipwhiuk 4y ago
  Nobody but 'the fastest amateurs' is even doing track. And Kipchoge is both the fastest and not an amateur.
mattkrause 4y ago
A 4:30 mile is a respectable mile time for a high school boy. It's good enough to be competitive at a state level (4:28 placed 7th in CT this year) but won't have D1 coaches salivating at the mouth.
TechBro8615 4y ago
4:30 is not an elite mile pace at any level of male competition except races above 8k. For mid-distance races (typically considered 800m and 1500m, or 1000m indoors or 1600m in Europe outdoors) it would be quite slow. A typical elite (D1 college) 800m time is 1:50, and champions are around 1:40. An above average high schooler recruitable to D3 can run 2:00. D1 recruits typically have mile time of 4:15 or faster. Most high school distance/mid-distance runners compete in 5k in the fall and 1500 or 3k in the spring. D1 recruitable times for those are 15:00-15:30 for 5k (mile pace of 4:50), 3:50-4:00 for 1500 (equivalent of about 4:07 - 4:20 mile time), and 8:30-8:45 for 3k (mile pace of about 4:30). Regarding air resistance and "drafting" off a pacer, this is definitely a real effect, although it's a much bigger deal outdoors especially with wind. Often in mid-distance races, there are multiple rounds and you need to qualify for the next by placing highly (not necessarily the same as "fast") in the prelims - it's common for early rounds to have slow times because of "tactical" races where every runner stays in the pack at a slow pace for 3/4 of the race, and then the "real race" happens on the final lap. source: used to be sort of fast.
- philipwhiuk 4y ago
  In the real world the entirety of college athletics sits inside 'fastest amateurs'. Anything shorter than a 5K is a blip on the landscape of amateur running.
- AtlasBarfed 4y ago
  nitpick: 800m world record is 1:40.91 ... the 800 is also not a race where the WR time is challenged on a regular basis. Championship 800m racing is a wait and kick affair which never lends itself to ultrafast times because the first 400 is loafed. The scary thing about David Rudisha's WR set at the 2012 Oly was that it was a solo wire-to-wire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKEOjWEzVGs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKEOjWEzVGs That DOES NOT HAPPEN in championship middle distance racing. Does not happen. Almost all middle distance records are set with precisely controlled tracks, weather, pacers, and racers to provide best conditions and drafting and temperature for the best times. Rudisha showed up a the Olympic Final, threw down a gauntlet to the field, and blew them away. You can see at the 500m mark of the video there were four or five runners who perfectly paced and tactically positioned themselves, where 999/1000 times the leader will fall off and get blown away by the chasers. What happens as a chaser is that instictive additional adrenaline surges as you chase down your quarry, and you're running through a draft for additional momentym. At 500m, Rudisha accelerates and leaves these other runners, who perfectly placed themselves for the usual chasedown, and just leaves them in the dust. Now consider he is losing 1 second a 400m without a draft/rabbit.... Also, I'd like to point out that the 800m is probably the most painful race of the track events. Typically you'll be well into anaerobic debt as you complete the first lap, and the second lap is allllllll pain. A typical 800m racer will hit 500m or so, his body is saying "HOLY SHIT STOP WHAT ARE YOU DOING" and that's when the racer ... has to kick and exert maximal effort for the next 200-300m. Rudisha as I understand wasn't a rift valley tribesman, the usual source of Kenyan elite distance runners who have genetic adaptations to altitude and efficient oxygen use / high VO2. He was a Maasai from the central lowlands. Just an amazing race. Now, I'm also a cynic of Olympic level performance, but that's for another day. RE: D1 recruits at 15:00/5k: the NUTS part of that is that 15:00/5k is barely competitive pace for elite MARATHONs these days (under good conditions like Rotterdam, Chicago, or London). So you get recruited for D1 for running a speed for 3 miles that an elite racer keeps up for 26 miles. Kind of along those lines, a lot of people don't realize how elite rabbits have to be just to run the proper pace for 1/2 to 1/3 the distance. They can't really go under the top 50 in the world to rabbit, otherwise they won't have the reliable talent to run the pace even on a so-so day.

js2 4y ago

By "wind breaking potential" I meant both that from air resistance as well as that from a breeze, but I appreciate the clarification. Even at the marathon distance it matters as we saw with Kipchoge’s Nike sponsored sub-2 run a few years back. Of course, Kipchoge ran that thing at 4:34/mi pace, not far off middle distance race pace!

jamincan 4y ago

I can't remember the source anymore, but I've heard that air resistance becomes a significant factor above roughly 16kph (~6min/mile).