3 ms·

It does seem kind of cheap to rely on a pacer, I can see how purists lament it as "not real racing". It eliminates an entire dimension from the competition: ma

It does seem kind of cheap to rely on a pacer, I can see how purists lament it as "not real racing". It eliminates an entire dimension from the competition: managing oneself and being aware / humble enough to not push unsustainably hard at the start only to run out of juice later on. Using a pacer essentially reduces the race to an artless treadmill grind. As an observer, the paced portion of the race is stupidly boring. The entrants don't make interesting moves at all for the paced duration, it's as though the race hasn't actually begun until into the third lap in a 1-mile race (only 4 laps total). Example: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lqa36sQhmg&t=111 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lqa36sQhmg&t=111 (thanks to @m348e912 for the link) Edit: @infamousclyde: Thank you for sharing some of the upsides. Valid point even if still boring for viewers.

hdctambien 4y ago
That was Steve Prefontaine's opinion, too. And it got him 4th in the Olympics. Pacer or not, you still have to run the run and that's not nothing.
- metadat 4y ago
  It says in the article pacers are not permitted in the Olympics.
  - tekla 4y ago
    The Olympics doesn't allow professionals anyway, so the comparison becomes weird.
    - freddie_mercury 4y ago
      The Olympics has allowed professional athletes since 1986.
      - tekla 4y ago
        I stand corrected.
      - dieselgate 4y ago
        This wasn’t a blanket rule allowed for all events though right? Michael Jordan and the USA men’s basketball dream team come to mind as obvious professionals but it seems for boxing, as an example, Professionals weren’t allowed to compete until more recently (2016) https://www.rookieroad.com/boxing/can-pro-boxers-compete-in-the-olympics/ https://www.rookieroad.com/boxing/can-pro-boxers-compete-in-...
        freddie_mercury 4y ago
        Jordan not being able to play wasn't because of Olympic rules. It was because of FIBA rules, which where changed after the 1988 Olympics. I don't follow boxing so not sure what the deal was there.
hanniabu 4y ago
It would be interesting to have an Olympics where every race each runner runs the race alone
- beached_whale 4y ago
  Then it would be pretty boring. But watch a few of the women's 5000m from a few years ago(haven't watching in a couple). You would see the leader all alone. It was exciting, but also lacked that excitement of seeing someone kick for the win.
- freddie_mercury 4y ago
  Not for every race but the Olympics has had that since 1912 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_trial_at_the_Olympics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_trial_at_the_Olympics
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Skiing often uses interval start. That means racers are released every 30 seconds. Passing could have some effect, but still it is mostly then individual run.
infamousclyde 4y ago
I don't think it's so black and white. Sometimes, races without pacers can have exceptionally slow splits (which-- admittedly, leads to a very exciting and tactical conclusion on occasion). These "slow" bouts are quite common in heats in the Olympics, for example. Pacers in the Diamond League, for example, maintain an exceptional pace that regularly leads to new World Records for participants, because the entire race is fast from the gun. I don't disagree with your sentiment. Just adding some nuance.
- wging 4y ago
  > Sometimes, races without pacers can have exceptionally slow splits (which-- admittedly, leads to a very exciting and tactical conclusion on occasion). The classic example here is the 2016 Olympic 1500m final (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grf_62s_95w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grf_62s_95w). Centrowitz should not have won that on paper. It ironically seems to have revolutionized the event, in a sense - championships have gotten really fast since.
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    the part I don't understand is why wouldn't anybody in that 2016 race just run faster at any point? Were they generally thinking "somebody's endurance is better than mine, my only chance is to win a sprint"?
    - wging 4y ago
      Not necessarily! Leading is more tiring, especially at a fast pace. Even if you are the fastest athlete in the field, and know it, you can still lose by wearing yourself out at the front. So for some runners it's as you say, but for the top few athletes it can be more like "my margin of superiority isn't sufficient to pay the cost of leading a fast race". (Some made-up numbers. Suppose you're 1 second faster than the second-best runner under ideal conditions, but you lose 1.5 seconds by leading. Result: you lose by half a second.) Which is in fact why pacemakers are employed at so many non-championship races, it solves the problem of people thinking "if I push the pace at the front I may pull everyone to a faster time (including myself), but sacrifice place" that leads to results like what you saw in 2016. That doesn't mean everyone played their hand well in 2016 - clearly they didn't. By the way, check out Centrowitz's little shimmy at maybe 450m to go/2:50 in that race - he made sure to be in front when it got going, that's what makes his run brilliant and not just lucky. For real examples of leading being a cost in a fast race, see the most recent two major championships - worlds 2022 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcRrBYx2XG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcRrBYx2XG8 and the Olympic final of 2020/21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us9bM_WGYlY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us9bM_WGYlY. Both are really fast as championships go, and in both the leader for much of the race loses. Would they still have lost if someone else had been in front? ...Maybe. But I think it would've been closer.
fsckboy 4y ago
> As an observer, the paced portion of the race is stupidly boring. part of it comes with the territory, I mean a marathon is pretty boring all the way through, and only now and then do we get an exciting finish. but on this topic, i'm with you all in favor of questioning the sportsmanship and "is it really racing?" aspect, but the paced portion of the race is generally being run at a faster pace than it would be if the the runners were self-pacing (I think), where the other alternative is running slower, or that self pacers would screw up and run too fast at the beginning and then finish more poorly; i.e. while being more pure, it's not clear the race would be more fun to watch (racers holding themselves back for fear of burning out?) or set as many records. the part I think I object to is that a pacer's pace might be "tuned" for a particular racer to the detriment of others.
- RHSman2 4y ago
  Boring is a subjective experience.

hdctambien 4y ago

That was Steve Prefontaine's opinion, too. And it got him 4th in the Olympics. Pacer or not, you still have to run the run and that's not nothing.

metadat 4y ago
It says in the article pacers are not permitted in the Olympics.
- tekla 4y ago
  The Olympics doesn't allow professionals anyway, so the comparison becomes weird.
  - freddie_mercury 4y ago
    The Olympics has allowed professional athletes since 1986.
    - tekla 4y ago
      I stand corrected.
    - dieselgate 4y ago
      This wasn’t a blanket rule allowed for all events though right? Michael Jordan and the USA men’s basketball dream team come to mind as obvious professionals but it seems for boxing, as an example, Professionals weren’t allowed to compete until more recently (2016) https://www.rookieroad.com/boxing/can-pro-boxers-compete-in-the-olympics/ https://www.rookieroad.com/boxing/can-pro-boxers-compete-in-...
      - freddie_mercury 4y ago
        Jordan not being able to play wasn't because of Olympic rules. It was because of FIBA rules, which where changed after the 1988 Olympics. I don't follow boxing so not sure what the deal was there.

hanniabu 4y ago

It would be interesting to have an Olympics where every race each runner runs the race alone

beached_whale 4y ago
Then it would be pretty boring. But watch a few of the women's 5000m from a few years ago(haven't watching in a couple). You would see the leader all alone. It was exciting, but also lacked that excitement of seeing someone kick for the win.
freddie_mercury 4y ago
Not for every race but the Olympics has had that since 1912 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_trial_at_the_Olympics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_trial_at_the_Olympics
Ekaros 4y ago
Skiing often uses interval start. That means racers are released every 30 seconds. Passing could have some effect, but still it is mostly then individual run.

infamousclyde 4y ago

I don't think it's so black and white. Sometimes, races without pacers can have exceptionally slow splits (which-- admittedly, leads to a very exciting and tactical conclusion on occasion). These "slow" bouts are quite common in heats in the Olympics, for example. Pacers in the Diamond League, for example, maintain an exceptional pace that regularly leads to new World Records for participants, because the entire race is fast from the gun. I don't disagree with your sentiment. Just adding some nuance.

wging 4y ago
> Sometimes, races without pacers can have exceptionally slow splits (which-- admittedly, leads to a very exciting and tactical conclusion on occasion). The classic example here is the 2016 Olympic 1500m final (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grf_62s_95w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grf_62s_95w). Centrowitz should not have won that on paper. It ironically seems to have revolutionized the event, in a sense - championships have gotten really fast since.
- fsckboy 4y ago
  the part I don't understand is why wouldn't anybody in that 2016 race just run faster at any point? Were they generally thinking "somebody's endurance is better than mine, my only chance is to win a sprint"?
  - wging 4y ago
    Not necessarily! Leading is more tiring, especially at a fast pace. Even if you are the fastest athlete in the field, and know it, you can still lose by wearing yourself out at the front. So for some runners it's as you say, but for the top few athletes it can be more like "my margin of superiority isn't sufficient to pay the cost of leading a fast race". (Some made-up numbers. Suppose you're 1 second faster than the second-best runner under ideal conditions, but you lose 1.5 seconds by leading. Result: you lose by half a second.) Which is in fact why pacemakers are employed at so many non-championship races, it solves the problem of people thinking "if I push the pace at the front I may pull everyone to a faster time (including myself), but sacrifice place" that leads to results like what you saw in 2016. That doesn't mean everyone played their hand well in 2016 - clearly they didn't. By the way, check out Centrowitz's little shimmy at maybe 450m to go/2:50 in that race - he made sure to be in front when it got going, that's what makes his run brilliant and not just lucky. For real examples of leading being a cost in a fast race, see the most recent two major championships - worlds 2022 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcRrBYx2XG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcRrBYx2XG8 and the Olympic final of 2020/21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us9bM_WGYlY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us9bM_WGYlY. Both are really fast as championships go, and in both the leader for much of the race loses. Would they still have lost if someone else had been in front? ...Maybe. But I think it would've been closer.

fsckboy 4y ago

> As an observer, the paced portion of the race is stupidly boring. part of it comes with the territory, I mean a marathon is pretty boring all the way through, and only now and then do we get an exciting finish. but on this topic, i'm with you all in favor of questioning the sportsmanship and "is it really racing?" aspect, but the paced portion of the race is generally being run at a faster pace than it would be if the the runners were self-pacing (I think), where the other alternative is running slower, or that self pacers would screw up and run too fast at the beginning and then finish more poorly; i.e. while being more pure, it's not clear the race would be more fun to watch (racers holding themselves back for fear of burning out?) or set as many records. the part I think I object to is that a pacer's pace might be "tuned" for a particular racer to the detriment of others.

RHSman2 4y ago
Boring is a subjective experience.