4 ms·

Starlink V2 Mini Satellites with 4x the bandwidth, E-Band, and Argon thrusters

seatac76 4y ago
This feels like a capability that will have giant impact across geopolitics which is not immediately clear. They mentioned backhaul, I wonder what is the upper bound of scale, will it be big enough to complement/replace submarine cables at some point.
- idoescompooters 4y ago
  Well for reference: "The current lit capacity of the Southern Cross Cable network is upwards of 5.4 Tb/s, while the Hawaiki cable between NZ and Hawaii is 10 Tb/s. Together with upgrades planned soon, this comes awfully close to Starlink’s worldwide system capacity, quoted to be 23.7 Tb/s worldwide or somewhere between 15 and 20 Gb/s per satellite. Except that Australia and New Zealand between them have a population of just over 30 million — and a lot of CDNs with a local presence. But there are billions of unconnected and under-connected users out there waiting for service." https://blog.apnic.net/2021/06/11/leo-satellites-part-4-why-direct-to-site/ https://blog.apnic.net/2021/06/11/leo-satellites-part-4-why-...
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    Yeah, the new satellites being announced here have about 100Gbps apiece. They want a constellation of 30,000, have been approved for around 7000 so far IIRC, so they’d have 700Tbps total (less than that usefully as most will be over water). But they plan on another big upgrade by about a factor of 3 with Starship, which should bring aggregate capacity to 2Pbps. This will be most useful for places like Hawaii as the satellites will otherwise be idle, so will have lots of space capacity. There are also competitors like OneWeb (smaller, but still useful) and Kuiper (not yet running, but potentially a comparably sized project, a project of Amazon’s), so this is just getting started.
    - shaklee3 4y ago
      This is a really poor way to compare. even with cross-links about 30% of their bandwidth is useable in the best case. starlink has no way of increasing capacity to their heaviest demand areas besides launching thousands more satellites. fiber is much, much, much more efficient.
      - Robotbeat 4y ago
        I consider about 20% of the aggregate bandwidth to be usable (the land area vs total area of the Earth), but in special cases like Hawaii, there’s potential a huge amount of bandwidth since Hawaiians can have access to some of this 80% otherwise-unused portion.
        shaklee3 4y ago
        Sure, but the problem is that the places you might have high bandwidth might already have good access to internet. Hawaii in general has very good internet already, so asking them to pay a premium for satellite internet isn't always a good trade.
        Robotbeat 4y ago
        That’s not necessarily the case. Hawaii has limited bandwidth and higher latency.
    - martin8412 4y ago
      Starship is vaporware.
      - Robotbeat 4y ago
        Let’s place a bet on it. By the end of 2025, there will have been more successful Starship orbital flights than SLS orbital flights.
  - 7e 4y ago
    Total international Internet capacity is 997 Tbps, according to Google. If they need more, though, they’ll presumably add more wavelengths to existing fiber. That puts Starlink at about 2%.
- wkat4242 4y ago
  Nah submarine cables have tons and tons of capacity. Fibre is super efficient and you can even use multiple colors to add capacity (DWDM). Radio spectrum is much more limited. Also they don't just lay one fibre at a time. Each fibre has its own clean broad spectrum where radio is always shared. Sats will not replace them for backhaul. The capacity isn't there. For limited emergencies sure but not for all our Netflix. This is all great for users in poorly connected areas and that's what it's really for. Ps: also the sat link is more for remote areas, the network is much more efficient when an uplink is available in the same area and this is also how it provides near cable-like latency. Basically a bent-pipe system. If you'd use this capability for long-distance back haul you'd need to tie up a lot of sats' capacity increasing latency and decreasing capacity overall.
  - throwntoday 4y ago
    Satellite service is more likely to replace cell. If the latency gets low enough, and capacity gets high enough, we can expect the Starlink/T-Mobile partnership to expand beyond emergency services. I'd certainly trade speed and latency for total planetary coverage.
    - 7e 4y ago
      More likely cell will replace satellite, as it is cheaper and more reliable.
    - martin8412 4y ago
      No it's not.. It's far most cost effective to deploy cellular. Fiber in the ground to a tower will easily last 50 years. The radio hardware will need ongoing maintenance, but it's still far cheaper than launching 30k satellites into space with a lifespan of five years.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    Are users in poorly connected areas enough to be profitable? These satellites have a short lifespan so it'll have to be hella profitable to make up for the constant replenishment launches no?
IronWolve 4y ago
High speed bandwidth connecting remote areas will have a big impact. Government wants it for ships, forest lookout towers, epa to watch waters and animals. Also remote cell sites can be provided with uplinks via starlink. My parents small town has 1 tower that provides everything from limited internet, cable and cell service via microwave. The community center only has internet because of it. Dialup is almost dead everywhere, and basically useless on modern websites. Millions of americans only have cell service as their only internet, expensive and bandwidth capped. I replaced my folks hotspot with starlink, its been great for them and when I work from their home. Teams works fine over it. I'd also expect comcast coverage zones that exclude a few houses will be using it. And areas lacking DSL service. What I'm looking forward to is when sats have sat to sat communications to route traffic around the world. Good times.
- kbaker 4y ago
  Not only those good times, but these V2 satellites will enable direct-to-satellite LTE connectivity on T-mobile, using existing cell phones. Cell coverage anywhere you can see the sky! A huge benefit to safety in rural and other areas without existing cell coverage. https://www.shacknews.com/article/132035/spacex-tmobile-starlink-v2 https://www.shacknews.com/article/132035/spacex-tmobile-star...
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    V2 has this functionality, but v2 mini doesn't seem to have the ability to do that.
BooneJS 4y ago
Any change to reflectivity seen by astronomers?
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  They haven’t launched yet. Will launch tomorrow.
- virtuallynathan 4y ago
  They published a whole document on it, V2 sats are designed to be less reflective than v1.x
roflyear 4y ago
Did they drop the laser thing? Seemed like that was basically impossible.
- wmf 4y ago
  Lasers are in production today. Remote parts of Australia, South America, and various islands are served only via laser links.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Lasers between satellites or something else?
    - wmf 4y ago
      Yes, between satellites.
- throwaway888abc 4y ago
  It also actively used in many metropolitan networks as backhauls. Google moonshot in action: Alphabet is bridging the Congo River with a 20Gbps laser beam. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/09/alphabets-laser-internet-system-has-sent-700tb-of-data-with-99-9-uptime/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/09/alphabets-laser-inte...
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Seems fixed is easier than in space but maybe not!
7e 4y ago
Will these require users to buy a new dish?
- londons_explore 4y ago
  No, but it makes business sense to require users to buy a new dish anyway. New dishes can make better use of limited frequency resources (eg. They support polarization). So they can squeeze more users in the same bandwidth if everyone has a new dish. So at some point, they'll require everyone purchase a new dish. And fewer hardware versions to support is less burden on the engineering team. That is part of why I think they should be providing the dish hardware for free as part of the service... The incentives are misaligned if the user buys the dish but spacex decides when it's deprecated.
jakedata 4y ago
My brother was just notified that his monthly subscription cost was going down - he was shocked. He actually uses Starlink in a major city that only has Comcast cable Internet. The service was so slow and unreliable that he was unable to work from home. He happily switched to Starlink and flipped Comcast the bird.

This feels like a capability that will have giant impact across geopolitics which is not immediately clear. They mentioned backhaul, I wonder what is the upper bound of scale, will it be big enough to complement/replace submarine cables at some point.

idoescompooters 4y ago
Well for reference: "The current lit capacity of the Southern Cross Cable network is upwards of 5.4 Tb/s, while the Hawaiki cable between NZ and Hawaii is 10 Tb/s. Together with upgrades planned soon, this comes awfully close to Starlink’s worldwide system capacity, quoted to be 23.7 Tb/s worldwide or somewhere between 15 and 20 Gb/s per satellite. Except that Australia and New Zealand between them have a population of just over 30 million — and a lot of CDNs with a local presence. But there are billions of unconnected and under-connected users out there waiting for service." https://blog.apnic.net/2021/06/11/leo-satellites-part-4-why-direct-to-site/ https://blog.apnic.net/2021/06/11/leo-satellites-part-4-why-...
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  Yeah, the new satellites being announced here have about 100Gbps apiece. They want a constellation of 30,000, have been approved for around 7000 so far IIRC, so they’d have 700Tbps total (less than that usefully as most will be over water). But they plan on another big upgrade by about a factor of 3 with Starship, which should bring aggregate capacity to 2Pbps. This will be most useful for places like Hawaii as the satellites will otherwise be idle, so will have lots of space capacity. There are also competitors like OneWeb (smaller, but still useful) and Kuiper (not yet running, but potentially a comparably sized project, a project of Amazon’s), so this is just getting started.
  - shaklee3 4y ago
    This is a really poor way to compare. even with cross-links about 30% of their bandwidth is useable in the best case. starlink has no way of increasing capacity to their heaviest demand areas besides launching thousands more satellites. fiber is much, much, much more efficient.
    - Robotbeat 4y ago
      I consider about 20% of the aggregate bandwidth to be usable (the land area vs total area of the Earth), but in special cases like Hawaii, there’s potential a huge amount of bandwidth since Hawaiians can have access to some of this 80% otherwise-unused portion.
      - shaklee3 4y ago
        Sure, but the problem is that the places you might have high bandwidth might already have good access to internet. Hawaii in general has very good internet already, so asking them to pay a premium for satellite internet isn't always a good trade.
        Robotbeat 4y ago
        That’s not necessarily the case. Hawaii has limited bandwidth and higher latency.
  - martin8412 4y ago
    Starship is vaporware.
    - Robotbeat 4y ago
      Let’s place a bet on it. By the end of 2025, there will have been more successful Starship orbital flights than SLS orbital flights.
- 7e 4y ago
  Total international Internet capacity is 997 Tbps, according to Google. If they need more, though, they’ll presumably add more wavelengths to existing fiber. That puts Starlink at about 2%.
wkat4242 4y ago
Nah submarine cables have tons and tons of capacity. Fibre is super efficient and you can even use multiple colors to add capacity (DWDM). Radio spectrum is much more limited. Also they don't just lay one fibre at a time. Each fibre has its own clean broad spectrum where radio is always shared. Sats will not replace them for backhaul. The capacity isn't there. For limited emergencies sure but not for all our Netflix. This is all great for users in poorly connected areas and that's what it's really for. Ps: also the sat link is more for remote areas, the network is much more efficient when an uplink is available in the same area and this is also how it provides near cable-like latency. Basically a bent-pipe system. If you'd use this capability for long-distance back haul you'd need to tie up a lot of sats' capacity increasing latency and decreasing capacity overall.
- throwntoday 4y ago
  Satellite service is more likely to replace cell. If the latency gets low enough, and capacity gets high enough, we can expect the Starlink/T-Mobile partnership to expand beyond emergency services. I'd certainly trade speed and latency for total planetary coverage.
  - 7e 4y ago
    More likely cell will replace satellite, as it is cheaper and more reliable.
  - martin8412 4y ago
    No it's not.. It's far most cost effective to deploy cellular. Fiber in the ground to a tower will easily last 50 years. The radio hardware will need ongoing maintenance, but it's still far cheaper than launching 30k satellites into space with a lifespan of five years.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  Are users in poorly connected areas enough to be profitable? These satellites have a short lifespan so it'll have to be hella profitable to make up for the constant replenishment launches no?

IronWolve 4y ago

High speed bandwidth connecting remote areas will have a big impact. Government wants it for ships, forest lookout towers, epa to watch waters and animals. Also remote cell sites can be provided with uplinks via starlink. My parents small town has 1 tower that provides everything from limited internet, cable and cell service via microwave. The community center only has internet because of it. Dialup is almost dead everywhere, and basically useless on modern websites. Millions of americans only have cell service as their only internet, expensive and bandwidth capped. I replaced my folks hotspot with starlink, its been great for them and when I work from their home. Teams works fine over it. I'd also expect comcast coverage zones that exclude a few houses will be using it. And areas lacking DSL service. What I'm looking forward to is when sats have sat to sat communications to route traffic around the world. Good times.

kbaker 4y ago
Not only those good times, but these V2 satellites will enable direct-to-satellite LTE connectivity on T-mobile, using existing cell phones. Cell coverage anywhere you can see the sky! A huge benefit to safety in rural and other areas without existing cell coverage. https://www.shacknews.com/article/132035/spacex-tmobile-starlink-v2 https://www.shacknews.com/article/132035/spacex-tmobile-star...
- londons_explore 4y ago
  V2 has this functionality, but v2 mini doesn't seem to have the ability to do that.

BooneJS 4y ago

Any change to reflectivity seen by astronomers?

Robotbeat 4y ago
They haven’t launched yet. Will launch tomorrow.
virtuallynathan 4y ago
They published a whole document on it, V2 sats are designed to be less reflective than v1.x

roflyear 4y ago

Did they drop the laser thing? Seemed like that was basically impossible.

wmf 4y ago
Lasers are in production today. Remote parts of Australia, South America, and various islands are served only via laser links.
- roflyear 4y ago
  Lasers between satellites or something else?
  - wmf 4y ago
    Yes, between satellites.
throwaway888abc 4y ago
It also actively used in many metropolitan networks as backhauls. Google moonshot in action: Alphabet is bridging the Congo River with a 20Gbps laser beam. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/09/alphabets-laser-internet-system-has-sent-700tb-of-data-with-99-9-uptime/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/09/alphabets-laser-inte...
- roflyear 4y ago
  Seems fixed is easier than in space but maybe not!

7e 4y ago

Will these require users to buy a new dish?

londons_explore 4y ago
No, but it makes business sense to require users to buy a new dish anyway. New dishes can make better use of limited frequency resources (eg. They support polarization). So they can squeeze more users in the same bandwidth if everyone has a new dish. So at some point, they'll require everyone purchase a new dish. And fewer hardware versions to support is less burden on the engineering team. That is part of why I think they should be providing the dish hardware for free as part of the service... The incentives are misaligned if the user buys the dish but spacex decides when it's deprecated.

jakedata 4y ago

My brother was just notified that his monthly subscription cost was going down - he was shocked. He actually uses Starlink in a major city that only has Comcast cable Internet. The service was so slow and unreliable that he was unable to work from home. He happily switched to Starlink and flipped Comcast the bird.