4 ms·

What? Why would anyone be punished for an unintentional lab leak? Scientists are also humans that can make mistakes.

by t-3 4y ago

b112 4y ago
But was it negligence? This is the difference between "a mistake" and "manslaughter". Without knowing, and a proper investigation, we can't decide. If it was negligence, punishment is used for a variety of reasons. Often, it is the only way to get people to push back against employers. And fines, are often the only way to get companies to care.
somewhereoutth 4y ago
Its not about punishment, its about the 'just world' fallacy where bad things happen because of 'bad' people (whether through malice or incompetence). It allows us to hide from uncomfortable truths - in this case that pathogen spillovers are inevitable, and that our response has been typically woeful.
chasd00 4y ago
You can unintentionally harm someone and still be liable for that harm.
salawat 4y ago
If a practicing engineer is ultimatrly responsible for a catastrophic outcome of a design they signed off on, I can see a case for shoddy virologists with bad lab practices being held ultimately responsible for what they ultimately leak. When what you make has the potential to impact billions; no offense, but I expect you to be a bit more hardcore about your adherence to safe practices of your trade. If this means the only people who end up becoming virologists and doing work that conceivably leads to the creation of pandemic pathogens are the most hardcore mf'ers with a boner for safety, perfectionism , and preserving their own skin; ...I'm actually okay with that. I'll even sweeten the pot. Lets extend that to Software Engineers and get a PE program for that sorted. Consistency after all. Long story short: "Oopsie" as an excuse stops applying when your body count becomes non-zero.
- landemva 4y ago
  > practicing engineer That sounds like a call for professional licensure and personal financial penalties for failures. Ensuring financial ruin for GoF cowgirls and cowboys and their families would be a good start.
kodah 4y ago
Scientists can definitely make mistakes. What circles around lab leak that's most interesting was the rampant indictments that discussing it made you a conspiracy theorist, which prevented it being discussed or investigated for over a year after the pandemic started. Around that time, the only thing that was acceptable to discuss was zoonotic origins. The original Lancet article: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2821%2901419-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... The retraction: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2821%2902019-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

What? Why would anyone be punished for an unintentional lab leak? Scientists are also humans that can make mistakes.

by t-3 4y ago

What? Why would anyone be punished for an unintentional lab leak? Scientists are also humans that can make mistakes.

b112 4y ago

But was it negligence? This is the difference between "a mistake" and "manslaughter". Without knowing, and a proper investigation, we can't decide. If it was negligence, punishment is used for a variety of reasons. Often, it is the only way to get people to push back against employers. And fines, are often the only way to get companies to care.

somewhereoutth 4y ago

Its not about punishment, its about the 'just world' fallacy where bad things happen because of 'bad' people (whether through malice or incompetence). It allows us to hide from uncomfortable truths - in this case that pathogen spillovers are inevitable, and that our response has been typically woeful.

chasd00 4y ago

You can unintentionally harm someone and still be liable for that harm.

salawat 4y ago

If a practicing engineer is ultimatrly responsible for a catastrophic outcome of a design they signed off on, I can see a case for shoddy virologists with bad lab practices being held ultimately responsible for what they ultimately leak. When what you make has the potential to impact billions; no offense, but I expect you to be a bit more hardcore about your adherence to safe practices of your trade. If this means the only people who end up becoming virologists and doing work that conceivably leads to the creation of pandemic pathogens are the most hardcore mf'ers with a boner for safety, perfectionism , and preserving their own skin; ...I'm actually okay with that. I'll even sweeten the pot. Lets extend that to Software Engineers and get a PE program for that sorted. Consistency after all. Long story short: "Oopsie" as an excuse stops applying when your body count becomes non-zero.

landemva 4y ago
> practicing engineer That sounds like a call for professional licensure and personal financial penalties for failures. Ensuring financial ruin for GoF cowgirls and cowboys and their families would be a good start.

kodah 4y ago

Scientists can definitely make mistakes. What circles around lab leak that's most interesting was the rampant indictments that discussing it made you a conspiracy theorist, which prevented it being discussed or investigated for over a year after the pandemic started. Around that time, the only thing that was acceptable to discuss was zoonotic origins. The original Lancet article: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2821%2901419-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... The retraction: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2821%2902019-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...