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> Minors aren't capable of consent. Which is why the permission of their parents acts as a limit on what they're able to agree to, in this case as in all other

> Minors aren't capable of consent. Which is why the permission of their parents acts as a limit on what they're able to agree to, in this case as in all others. > The treatments have permanent side effects Yes, that's the point. > lead to sterilization. One of the drugs used to aid in "transitioning" is lupron, which is also used to sterilize sex offenders This is pure bad faith fear mongering. It doesn't matter what else the drugs could do. Titanium is used in missiles, chemotherapy drugs can be used for euthenasia. None of those are what we're talking about, so talk about what we're talking about not some other unrelated thing. > The only reason why any of this is allowed to happen is because the general population doesn't see what's happening. There's no "general population" this is being slyly pushed on. People are making decisions within their families. Each individual is making choices with medical consideration and the guidance and, if a minor, ultimately the permission of their families and doctors. "Allowed" is a telling choice of words though! You're advocating for a state-enforced limit on what people are allowed to choose for themselves. --- And additionally, and very seriously, wake the fuck up and pay attention. The anti-trans moral panic is the tip of the spear of fascism in north america. You had a clean chance to see that and change course last year when Putin explicitly used anti-LGBT reasoning as part of his justification for the invasion of ukraine! Look at what Orban is up to, what comes along with this rhetoric. Look at what you are being used to accomplish.

trieste92 4y ago
> "Allowed" is a telling choice of words though! You're advocating for a state-enforced limit on what people are allowed to choose for themselves. To children. What people are allowed to do to children > Which is why the permission of their parents acts as a limit on what they're able to agree to, in this case as in all others. If a parent comes forward and says "I consent to my child getting sterilized", should that be the only criterion necessary? You said "all" here, so you think that the case I provided is also covered? > The anti-trans moral panic is the tip of the spear of fascism in north america https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/16/as-spain-advances-trans-rights-sweden-backtracks-on-gender-affirming-treatments-for-teens https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/16/as-spain-advances-t... Would you describe Sweden as a fascist country? For (generally) prohibiting giving hormonal therapies to children?
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  > If a parent comes forward and says "I consent to my child getting sterilized" Is that happening? We're not trying to formulate a generalizable moral framework here, we're responding to a concrete set of conditions experienced by actual living people. We're inserting ourself into a specialized medical practice, against the wishes of both its practitioners and the people receiving the treatment, who say it helps them. Why are we doing that? Why are you so invested with what choices people make for themselves, again, with the consideration of their doctors and families? > Would you describe Sweden as a fascist country? Yeah kinda actually. Unlike most people with internet opinions of scandinavia I have actually lived there with a non-white spouse and they are racist as fuck. I wasn't surprised at all to hear they decided to euthanize old folks during covid and I wouldn't be surprised if they take a hard right swerve in the next decade either.
  - trieste92 4y ago
    > against the wishes of both its practitioners Because our wishes conflict with their economic motives > the people receiving the treatment, who say it helps them Again, children who aren't able to consent > Why are you so invested with what choices people make for themselves, again, with the consideration of their doctors and families? The same reason why I think the distribution of opiates should be tightly regulated. Because I see something that's inherently wrong, and I see corporations benefitting from it
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      "After careful application of my Logic, I have decided that I support precisely these two restrictive policies that also, separately and completely coincidentally of course, harm some of the most marginalized and vulnerable members of society." Like, this is just not credible sorry. There is a neofascist moral panic being used to justify crackdowns and violence against this group right now. That's where we are and that's where your justification of support needs to start from.
  - lelanthran 4y ago

trieste92 4y ago

> "Allowed" is a telling choice of words though! You're advocating for a state-enforced limit on what people are allowed to choose for themselves. To children. What people are allowed to do to children > Which is why the permission of their parents acts as a limit on what they're able to agree to, in this case as in all others. If a parent comes forward and says "I consent to my child getting sterilized", should that be the only criterion necessary? You said "all" here, so you think that the case I provided is also covered? > The anti-trans moral panic is the tip of the spear of fascism in north america https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/16/as-spain-advances-trans-rights-sweden-backtracks-on-gender-affirming-treatments-for-teens https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/16/as-spain-advances-t... Would you describe Sweden as a fascist country? For (generally) prohibiting giving hormonal therapies to children?

giraffe_lady 4y ago
> If a parent comes forward and says "I consent to my child getting sterilized" Is that happening? We're not trying to formulate a generalizable moral framework here, we're responding to a concrete set of conditions experienced by actual living people. We're inserting ourself into a specialized medical practice, against the wishes of both its practitioners and the people receiving the treatment, who say it helps them. Why are we doing that? Why are you so invested with what choices people make for themselves, again, with the consideration of their doctors and families? > Would you describe Sweden as a fascist country? Yeah kinda actually. Unlike most people with internet opinions of scandinavia I have actually lived there with a non-white spouse and they are racist as fuck. I wasn't surprised at all to hear they decided to euthanize old folks during covid and I wouldn't be surprised if they take a hard right swerve in the next decade either.
- trieste92 4y ago
  > against the wishes of both its practitioners Because our wishes conflict with their economic motives > the people receiving the treatment, who say it helps them Again, children who aren't able to consent > Why are you so invested with what choices people make for themselves, again, with the consideration of their doctors and families? The same reason why I think the distribution of opiates should be tightly regulated. Because I see something that's inherently wrong, and I see corporations benefitting from it
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    "After careful application of my Logic, I have decided that I support precisely these two restrictive policies that also, separately and completely coincidentally of course, harm some of the most marginalized and vulnerable members of society." Like, this is just not credible sorry. There is a neofascist moral panic being used to justify crackdowns and violence against this group right now. That's where we are and that's where your justification of support needs to start from.
- lelanthran 4y ago