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Clojure(script) always seems to me to be this hotbed of interesting ideas in programming. I.e. you'll see something wild like this start here then eventually th

Clojure(script) always seems to me to be this hotbed of interesting ideas in programming. I.e. you'll see something wild like this start here then eventually the concepts make their way out into regular JavaScript. I'm almost starting to regret not picking Clojurescript for my app

wotbrew 4y ago
A big part of the curse of lisp is that anything feels possible. Even for one guy who works at a veg shop.
- grugagag 4y ago
  There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s wrong not pursuing once get that feeling. Worse outcome is a much better understanding
  - danuker 4y ago
    Worse outcome is wasting time tying your future to a language that will die soon, with few people you could hire to help. But the rewards are in line with the risks.
    - stevepeg 4y ago
      Geez, it's a programming language not a spouse! You can just, you know, use another one if it doesn't work out.
      - eyelidlessness 4y ago
        Yep! I’ve been years parted from Clojure(Script) and I’m still glad we had those times we shared together.
- jsyolo 4y ago
  I don't see any macro usage in this project, what part of clojure made you feel anything is possible for this project?
nextos 4y ago
While I love Clojure, these ideas already existed in other languages. For example, Mozart/Oz basically integrates all major paradigms [1]. It's a bit of a tragedy it has been mostly abandoned. I wish a Lisp, such as Clojure, emulated Mozart/Oz semantics. [1] https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/VanRoyChapter.pdf https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/VanRoyChapter.pdf
- gsinclair 4y ago
  Link looks great; thank you.
- cloogshicer 4y ago
  Holy crap, that figure 2, showing all the programming paradigms and how they relate to each other is incredible.
  - nextos 4y ago
    The extended version of this is the book Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming [1], which is just incredibly good. There's also a summary poster [2]. Actually, CTM was in Rich Hickey's reading list when he designed Clojure [3]. [1] https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/book.html https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/book.html [2] https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng201.pdf https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng201.pdf [3] https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/137472.Rich_Hickey_s_Clojure_Bookshelf https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/137472.Rich_Hickey_s_Clo...
    - cloogshicer 4y ago
      Thank you for the recommendation!
- mncharity 4y ago
  > Mozart/Oz [...] a bit of a tragedy it has been mostly abandoned Agreed. But wow the documentation was a mess. So much language progress these last decades has been around increasing minimum expectations for ecosystem. Poplog (integrated CommonLisp, prolog, ML, an a C-like; 1980's) is another on my list of roads regrettably not taken. Killed by commercialization. Which also zombied CL.
capableweb 4y ago
Lots of stuff now established as "best practices" or whatever in frontend JavaScript applications comes from being made popular with ClojureScript development. Side-effects as data, hot reloading, keeping your app state in one place all were inspired from work happening in the ClojureScript community at the time JavaScript community "discovered" it. The ClojureScript community obviously didn't come up with everything, many of the ideas are very old ideas for UI development but didn't really exist in the "web-sphere" before. I'm pretty sure I can remember Dan Abramov saying Redux was directly inspired by stuff happening in the ClojureScript community, particularly around atoms and hot-reloading. Also I think Pete Hunt mentioned stuff David Nolen was working on when talking about React as well initially, but less confident about this.
- dwohnitmok 4y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if Redux has cross-polination from ClojureScript, but in terms of non-Javascript languages that inspired Redux, the top of that list is probably Elm. See https://redux.js.org/understanding/history-and-design/prior-art https://redux.js.org/understanding/history-and-design/prior-... which lists Elm right under Flux.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    Either way, FP is slowly eating the web. "View as function of state" has thoroughly won the argument. What that will ultimately look like is unclear, but ignore it at your own peril.
    - eyelidlessness 4y ago
      It’s not just eating the web, * as function of state is generally the trend in many disciplines. So much so that people I knew who balked at the concept have since embraced it. And it is good. Now we just have to get a handle on all the leaky stuff at the edges of every “functional core”, because there lay many dragons.
      - 4y ago

wotbrew 4y ago

A big part of the curse of lisp is that anything feels possible. Even for one guy who works at a veg shop.

grugagag 4y ago
There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s wrong not pursuing once get that feeling. Worse outcome is a much better understanding
- danuker 4y ago
  Worse outcome is wasting time tying your future to a language that will die soon, with few people you could hire to help. But the rewards are in line with the risks.
  - stevepeg 4y ago
    Geez, it's a programming language not a spouse! You can just, you know, use another one if it doesn't work out.
    - eyelidlessness 4y ago
      Yep! I’ve been years parted from Clojure(Script) and I’m still glad we had those times we shared together.
jsyolo 4y ago
I don't see any macro usage in this project, what part of clojure made you feel anything is possible for this project?

nextos 4y ago

While I love Clojure, these ideas already existed in other languages. For example, Mozart/Oz basically integrates all major paradigms [1]. It's a bit of a tragedy it has been mostly abandoned. I wish a Lisp, such as Clojure, emulated Mozart/Oz semantics. [1] https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/VanRoyChapter.pdf https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/VanRoyChapter.pdf

gsinclair 4y ago
Link looks great; thank you.
cloogshicer 4y ago
Holy crap, that figure 2, showing all the programming paradigms and how they relate to each other is incredible.
- nextos 4y ago
  The extended version of this is the book Concepts, Techniques, and Models of Computer Programming [1], which is just incredibly good. There's also a summary poster [2]. Actually, CTM was in Rich Hickey's reading list when he designed Clojure [3]. [1] https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/book.html https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/book.html [2] https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng201.pdf https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng201.pdf [3] https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/137472.Rich_Hickey_s_Clojure_Bookshelf https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/137472.Rich_Hickey_s_Clo...
  - cloogshicer 4y ago
    Thank you for the recommendation!
mncharity 4y ago
> Mozart/Oz [...] a bit of a tragedy it has been mostly abandoned Agreed. But wow the documentation was a mess. So much language progress these last decades has been around increasing minimum expectations for ecosystem. Poplog (integrated CommonLisp, prolog, ML, an a C-like; 1980's) is another on my list of roads regrettably not taken. Killed by commercialization. Which also zombied CL.

capableweb 4y ago

Lots of stuff now established as "best practices" or whatever in frontend JavaScript applications comes from being made popular with ClojureScript development. Side-effects as data, hot reloading, keeping your app state in one place all were inspired from work happening in the ClojureScript community at the time JavaScript community "discovered" it. The ClojureScript community obviously didn't come up with everything, many of the ideas are very old ideas for UI development but didn't really exist in the "web-sphere" before. I'm pretty sure I can remember Dan Abramov saying Redux was directly inspired by stuff happening in the ClojureScript community, particularly around atoms and hot-reloading. Also I think Pete Hunt mentioned stuff David Nolen was working on when talking about React as well initially, but less confident about this.

dwohnitmok 4y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if Redux has cross-polination from ClojureScript, but in terms of non-Javascript languages that inspired Redux, the top of that list is probably Elm. See https://redux.js.org/understanding/history-and-design/prior-art https://redux.js.org/understanding/history-and-design/prior-... which lists Elm right under Flux.
- chitowneats 4y ago
  Either way, FP is slowly eating the web. "View as function of state" has thoroughly won the argument. What that will ultimately look like is unclear, but ignore it at your own peril.
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    It’s not just eating the web, * as function of state is generally the trend in many disciplines. So much so that people I knew who balked at the concept have since embraced it. And it is good. Now we just have to get a handle on all the leaky stuff at the edges of every “functional core”, because there lay many dragons.
    - 4y ago