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True. And yet, it shows that there is a large scientific community & apparatus willing to experiment with this. Circumstantial evidence is not proof of wrongdo

True. And yet, it shows that there is a large scientific community & apparatus willing to experiment with this. Circumstantial evidence is not proof of wrongdoing, but it is reason to ask more questions. Why were those questions censored? Why were they ruled unacceptable "misinformation"? It seems to me that we were asleep at the switch.

mikeyouse 4y ago
The counter to that is that the experts in coronaviruses knew they were the likely next epidemic and that they were doing their best to characterize the threat as best possible but unfortunately failed before the spillover came. The scientific community knew how close we came between SARS and MERS, a small mutation of either could’ve been much more virulent and pathogenic, so of course they were trying to research.
- chitowneats 4y ago
  The question is not whether the research was worth it overall. They denied there was even a possibility that lab leak was the cause of the pandemic. I'm more than happy to entertain the idea that the research is and was worth it. But we need to have an accurate accounting of recent events. They tried to completely shut that down. Thankfully, lately it seems that they failed.
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    There’s an immense benefit to being specific with both what you mean by lab leak (natural virus leaked or modified one did) and by “they” when you’re talking about coverups because it gets weirdly racist and conspiratorial in a hurry otherwise.
    - chitowneats 4y ago
      Unfortunately, you seem fundamentally confused about the position of people who are skeptical of zoonotic origin. Please explain to me how position A) is more racist than position B) A) Scientists all over the world, including Chinese, Americans, and others, made a fundamental misjudgement about the safety of the Wuhan virology lab, or perhaps viral experimentation generally, and the result was a global pandemic Versus B) Chinese people eating & trading wild and exotic meat unintentionally caused a global pandemic due to their consumption Of course, neither theory is racist. That's a word that used to mean something (and I wish it still did!), but is mostly used today to shut down debate in Western countries.
      - mikeyouse 4y ago
        I’d rather just leave you to your false dichotomy. Thanks though.
        chitowneats 4y ago
        [flagged]
        dmix 4y ago
        It's sad to see OP has been on HN since 2012. I guess he learned nothing from our community in the last 10yrs.
        anon291 4y ago
        It is scary to think that educational systems in democracy around the world produce comments like that. The commenter made a good point and your response is simply that you're going to stick with your prior beliefs because what? Part of good rhetoric is entertaining opposing ideas.
        mikeyouse 4y ago
        Refusing to engage with false dichotomies doesn't mean I'm stubbornly sticking with my priors.. if this is your first dip in the "lab leak" vs "zoonotic origin" pool, welcome, because otherwise you'd know how quickly it turns to shit when people pretend like only two scenarios exist. Don't fret, democracy will survive even I don't choose to engage with this particular round of bad faith argument!
        anon291 4y ago
        There's no dichotomy here. The OC is merely pointing out that one theory (wet market) was widely accepted despite its obvious racism, while another (lab leak) was dismissed as racist despite being less racist than the wet market one. I believe this is a worthy point of discussion. I mean... for several years, the notion that Chinese people are unsanitary was conisdered not racist, while the notion that extremely smart Chinese bioscientists may have covered up a lab accident was considered Asian hating. That sort of double think is worthy of questioning and criticism.
  - dmix 4y ago
    > Thankfully, lately it seems that they failed. I still get the impression the 'selectively silence misinformation' crowd is still as emboldened as ever, even in the pursuit of science. Despite it repeatedly failing and backfiring. COVID helped give Reddit-style control of discourse a glean of urgency/respectability and "it's okay because we had good-intentions" continues to be the go-to justification.

mikeyouse 4y ago

The counter to that is that the experts in coronaviruses knew they were the likely next epidemic and that they were doing their best to characterize the threat as best possible but unfortunately failed before the spillover came. The scientific community knew how close we came between SARS and MERS, a small mutation of either could’ve been much more virulent and pathogenic, so of course they were trying to research.

chitowneats 4y ago
The question is not whether the research was worth it overall. They denied there was even a possibility that lab leak was the cause of the pandemic. I'm more than happy to entertain the idea that the research is and was worth it. But we need to have an accurate accounting of recent events. They tried to completely shut that down. Thankfully, lately it seems that they failed.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  There’s an immense benefit to being specific with both what you mean by lab leak (natural virus leaked or modified one did) and by “they” when you’re talking about coverups because it gets weirdly racist and conspiratorial in a hurry otherwise.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    Unfortunately, you seem fundamentally confused about the position of people who are skeptical of zoonotic origin. Please explain to me how position A) is more racist than position B) A) Scientists all over the world, including Chinese, Americans, and others, made a fundamental misjudgement about the safety of the Wuhan virology lab, or perhaps viral experimentation generally, and the result was a global pandemic Versus B) Chinese people eating & trading wild and exotic meat unintentionally caused a global pandemic due to their consumption Of course, neither theory is racist. That's a word that used to mean something (and I wish it still did!), but is mostly used today to shut down debate in Western countries.
    - mikeyouse 4y ago
      I’d rather just leave you to your false dichotomy. Thanks though.
      - chitowneats 4y ago
        [flagged]
        dmix 4y ago
        It's sad to see OP has been on HN since 2012. I guess he learned nothing from our community in the last 10yrs.
      - anon291 4y ago
        It is scary to think that educational systems in democracy around the world produce comments like that. The commenter made a good point and your response is simply that you're going to stick with your prior beliefs because what? Part of good rhetoric is entertaining opposing ideas.
        mikeyouse 4y ago
        Refusing to engage with false dichotomies doesn't mean I'm stubbornly sticking with my priors.. if this is your first dip in the "lab leak" vs "zoonotic origin" pool, welcome, because otherwise you'd know how quickly it turns to shit when people pretend like only two scenarios exist. Don't fret, democracy will survive even I don't choose to engage with this particular round of bad faith argument!
        anon291 4y ago
        There's no dichotomy here. The OC is merely pointing out that one theory (wet market) was widely accepted despite its obvious racism, while another (lab leak) was dismissed as racist despite being less racist than the wet market one. I believe this is a worthy point of discussion. I mean... for several years, the notion that Chinese people are unsanitary was conisdered not racist, while the notion that extremely smart Chinese bioscientists may have covered up a lab accident was considered Asian hating. That sort of double think is worthy of questioning and criticism.
- dmix 4y ago
  > Thankfully, lately it seems that they failed. I still get the impression the 'selectively silence misinformation' crowd is still as emboldened as ever, even in the pursuit of science. Despite it repeatedly failing and backfiring. COVID helped give Reddit-style control of discourse a glean of urgency/respectability and "it's okay because we had good-intentions" continues to be the go-to justification.