4 ms·

Yes we have the sequences and no they’re nothing like SarsCov2

chitowneats 4y ago
True. And yet, it shows that there is a large scientific community & apparatus willing to experiment with this. Circumstantial evidence is not proof of wrongdoing, but it is reason to ask more questions. Why were those questions censored? Why were they ruled unacceptable "misinformation"? It seems to me that we were asleep at the switch.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  The counter to that is that the experts in coronaviruses knew they were the likely next epidemic and that they were doing their best to characterize the threat as best possible but unfortunately failed before the spillover came. The scientific community knew how close we came between SARS and MERS, a small mutation of either could’ve been much more virulent and pathogenic, so of course they were trying to research.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    The question is not whether the research was worth it overall. They denied there was even a possibility that lab leak was the cause of the pandemic. I'm more than happy to entertain the idea that the research is and was worth it. But we need to have an accurate accounting of recent events. They tried to completely shut that down. Thankfully, lately it seems that they failed.
    - mikeyouse 4y ago
      There’s an immense benefit to being specific with both what you mean by lab leak (natural virus leaked or modified one did) and by “they” when you’re talking about coverups because it gets weirdly racist and conspiratorial in a hurry otherwise.
      - chitowneats 4y ago
        Unfortunately, you seem fundamentally confused about the position of people who are skeptical of zoonotic origin. Please explain to me how position A) is more racist than position B) A) Scientists all over the world, including Chinese, Americans, and others, made a fundamental misjudgement about the safety of the Wuhan virology lab, or perhaps viral experimentation generally, and the result was a global pandemic Versus B) Chinese people eating & trading wild and exotic meat unintentionally caused a global pandemic due to their consumption Of course, neither theory is racist. That's a word that used to mean something (and I wish it still did!), but is mostly used today to shut down debate in Western countries.
        mikeyouse 4y ago
        I’d rather just leave you to your false dichotomy. Thanks though.
        chitowneats 4y ago
        [flagged]
        dmix 4y ago
        It's sad to see OP has been on HN since 2012. I guess he learned nothing from our community in the last 10yrs.
        anon291 4y ago
        It is scary to think that educational systems in democracy around the world produce comments like that. The commenter made a good point and your response is simply that you're going to stick with your prior beliefs because what? Part of good rhetoric is entertaining opposing ideas.
        mikeyouse 4y ago
        Refusing to engage with false dichotomies doesn't mean I'm stubbornly sticking with my priors.. if this is your first dip in the "lab leak" vs "zoonotic origin" pool, welcome, because otherwise you'd know how quickly it turns to shit when people pretend like only two scenarios exist. Don't fret, democracy will survive even I don't choose to engage with this particular round of bad faith argument!
    - dmix 4y ago
      > Thankfully, lately it seems that they failed. I still get the impression the 'selectively silence misinformation' crowd is still as emboldened as ever, even in the pursuit of science. Despite it repeatedly failing and backfiring. COVID helped give Reddit-style control of discourse a glean of urgency/respectability and "it's okay because we had good-intentions" continues to be the go-to justification.
baja_blast 4y ago
No we do not have the sequences, the lab has so far refused to share the sequences in their public database taken down down September of 2019. Plus recently people have discovered through BLAST searches an unreported Chimera virus that got accidentally got sequenced via contaminated agricultural rice sequencing dataset. Which means they had viruses that have not been previously reported. And this makes sense researchers do not publish viruses until they themselves can publish them in a journal. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.02.12.528210v2.full.pdf https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.02.12.528210v2....
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  It was available well into 2020 if you read past the shitty early headlines.
  - tripletao 4y ago
    I guess you're referring here to Flo Débarre's misleading tweet, which you linked to four months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33247997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33247997 As I noted in my reply at that time, everyone has always agreed that the overall server remained intermittently accessible until Feb 2020. The particular database "was not accessed from outside of the WIV after 12 September 2019", though.
    - mikeyouse 4y ago
      Right, a database put online in June 2019 - widely claimed to be “suspiciously removed” in Sept 2019, actually wasn’t. It was available into 2020 at which point after a bunch of hacking attempts, they took it down. And certainly “everyone hasn’t agreed” because in every thread about the topic people imply like this 6 Month old database is a smoking gun when it’s self evidently not.
      - tripletao 4y ago
        I don't think the server is conclusive evidence of anything, but your representation seems misleading to me. The date when the information became publicly unavailable seems like the relevant one to me, even if the server remained connected to the Internet for a few months afterward. And you seriously believe their claim that it was taken down due to "hacking attempts"? Given the international importance of the subject, is there really no one anywhere in China who can keep a simple database-backed website running? Or could they not share the information in a form that obviously presents no information security risk, like a dump on a flash drive?
himinlomax 4y ago
Even if we had them and they were found to be different, that doesn't exclude the possibility that they repeated the same experiment with different source material.

True. And yet, it shows that there is a large scientific community & apparatus willing to experiment with this. Circumstantial evidence is not proof of wrongdoing, but it is reason to ask more questions. Why were those questions censored? Why were they ruled unacceptable "misinformation"? It seems to me that we were asleep at the switch.

mikeyouse 4y ago
The counter to that is that the experts in coronaviruses knew they were the likely next epidemic and that they were doing their best to characterize the threat as best possible but unfortunately failed before the spillover came. The scientific community knew how close we came between SARS and MERS, a small mutation of either could’ve been much more virulent and pathogenic, so of course they were trying to research.
- chitowneats 4y ago
  The question is not whether the research was worth it overall. They denied there was even a possibility that lab leak was the cause of the pandemic. I'm more than happy to entertain the idea that the research is and was worth it. But we need to have an accurate accounting of recent events. They tried to completely shut that down. Thankfully, lately it seems that they failed.
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    There’s an immense benefit to being specific with both what you mean by lab leak (natural virus leaked or modified one did) and by “they” when you’re talking about coverups because it gets weirdly racist and conspiratorial in a hurry otherwise.
    - chitowneats 4y ago
      Unfortunately, you seem fundamentally confused about the position of people who are skeptical of zoonotic origin. Please explain to me how position A) is more racist than position B) A) Scientists all over the world, including Chinese, Americans, and others, made a fundamental misjudgement about the safety of the Wuhan virology lab, or perhaps viral experimentation generally, and the result was a global pandemic Versus B) Chinese people eating & trading wild and exotic meat unintentionally caused a global pandemic due to their consumption Of course, neither theory is racist. That's a word that used to mean something (and I wish it still did!), but is mostly used today to shut down debate in Western countries.
      - mikeyouse 4y ago
        I’d rather just leave you to your false dichotomy. Thanks though.
        chitowneats 4y ago
        [flagged]
        dmix 4y ago
        It's sad to see OP has been on HN since 2012. I guess he learned nothing from our community in the last 10yrs.
        anon291 4y ago
        It is scary to think that educational systems in democracy around the world produce comments like that. The commenter made a good point and your response is simply that you're going to stick with your prior beliefs because what? Part of good rhetoric is entertaining opposing ideas.
        mikeyouse 4y ago
        Refusing to engage with false dichotomies doesn't mean I'm stubbornly sticking with my priors.. if this is your first dip in the "lab leak" vs "zoonotic origin" pool, welcome, because otherwise you'd know how quickly it turns to shit when people pretend like only two scenarios exist. Don't fret, democracy will survive even I don't choose to engage with this particular round of bad faith argument!
  - dmix 4y ago
    > Thankfully, lately it seems that they failed. I still get the impression the 'selectively silence misinformation' crowd is still as emboldened as ever, even in the pursuit of science. Despite it repeatedly failing and backfiring. COVID helped give Reddit-style control of discourse a glean of urgency/respectability and "it's okay because we had good-intentions" continues to be the go-to justification.

baja_blast 4y ago

No we do not have the sequences, the lab has so far refused to share the sequences in their public database taken down down September of 2019. Plus recently people have discovered through BLAST searches an unreported Chimera virus that got accidentally got sequenced via contaminated agricultural rice sequencing dataset. Which means they had viruses that have not been previously reported. And this makes sense researchers do not publish viruses until they themselves can publish them in a journal. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.02.12.528210v2.full.pdf https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.02.12.528210v2....

mikeyouse 4y ago
It was available well into 2020 if you read past the shitty early headlines.
- tripletao 4y ago
  I guess you're referring here to Flo Débarre's misleading tweet, which you linked to four months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33247997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33247997 As I noted in my reply at that time, everyone has always agreed that the overall server remained intermittently accessible until Feb 2020. The particular database "was not accessed from outside of the WIV after 12 September 2019", though.
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    Right, a database put online in June 2019 - widely claimed to be “suspiciously removed” in Sept 2019, actually wasn’t. It was available into 2020 at which point after a bunch of hacking attempts, they took it down. And certainly “everyone hasn’t agreed” because in every thread about the topic people imply like this 6 Month old database is a smoking gun when it’s self evidently not.
    - tripletao 4y ago
      I don't think the server is conclusive evidence of anything, but your representation seems misleading to me. The date when the information became publicly unavailable seems like the relevant one to me, even if the server remained connected to the Internet for a few months afterward. And you seriously believe their claim that it was taken down due to "hacking attempts"? Given the international importance of the subject, is there really no one anywhere in China who can keep a simple database-backed website running? Or could they not share the information in a form that obviously presents no information security risk, like a dump on a flash drive?

himinlomax 4y ago

Even if we had them and they were found to be different, that doesn't exclude the possibility that they repeated the same experiment with different source material.