5 ms·

C++11 will be introduced by B.Stroustrup at Microsoft Event

72 points by alpb 15y ago

huhtenberg 15y ago
> "C++11 feels like a new language" says C++ creator Bjarne Stroustrup Great. Finally a reason enough to go back to C :-)
bediger 15y ago
Isn't this a little weird, given that MSFT wants people to use "managed code", the CLI, and all the attendant software? Or is it telling us that people who get to choose (free software) aren't going to be using C++11? I can't tell.
- astrodust 15y ago
  What's wrong with the new standard? GNU g++ will be supporting it, right?
  - apaprocki 15y ago
    The compiler with probably the most existing support right now is gcc 4.7. I've been hearing that C++11 may become the standard mode as of 4.8. http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-4.7/cxx0x_status.html http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-4.7/cxx0x_status.html
- andersh 15y ago
  >Isn't this a little weird, given that MSFT wants people to use "managed code" What's really weird is MS sell a C++ compiler they don't want people to use! >Or is it telling us that people who get to choose (free software) aren't going to be using C++11? That'd be a real shame, for people to miss out on C++11 goodness just because they're MS-phobic.
- btn 15y ago
  I think Herb Sutter talked a fair bit about this at the Build and C++ and Beyond conferences last year. The gist of it (IIRC) is that while managed code may be better for developer productivity, C++ continues to win when it comes to performance/size. Microsoft's trying to take a "best of both worlds" approach: promoting C++11 as a first-class language on Windows (WinRT), and making interop between managed and C++ code easier (C++/CX, formerly C++/CLI, formerly Managed C++).
- jed_s 15y ago
  Windows 8 WinRT is unmanaged/native; this has caused a conspiracy theory blaming infighting between Microsoft teams: Why is WinRT unmanaged? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7457371/why-is-winrt-unmanaged/7524710#7524710 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7457371/why-is-winrt-unma...
  - iso8859-1 15y ago
    Which of those answers do you prefer? Accepted one seems a bit far fetched and simplistic. As Tatiana notes: "SharePoint is .NET, and it's half of Office.". Also see Larry's comment.
    - jed_s 15y ago
      I'll warn in advance that this is the jazz hands answer, because it's really impossible to tell. I doubt any one person decreed WinRT should be native; most likely it was the best of many compromises. Anyone willing to name names while documenting the internal politics that went along with the decision(s) could write quite the page-turner! * I could see decisions being influenced by long-term career prospects, but believe that people would be smart enough to hide most of this by working harder to find evidence supporting the direction they needed the tech to go. * According to my limited understanding, Microsoft long ago threw out a bunch of OS-level managed development pre-Vista (WinFS-type stuff) in part because of performance related issues. * ASP.NET (SharePoint) / managed code server-side is not going away any time soon, if ever... it's just too easy (and server hardware can typically handle any overhead). * .NET client-side could go either way; I think this is what the accepted answer is saying (eg. Silverlight as this decade's VB6 - convenient LOB tool killed with no direct transition to new tech) * Mono/Unity 3d/etc. are wildcards here, particularly as they support C# for non-Microsoft platforms (especially iPhone/Android). * Microsoft, or at least powerful people within Microsoft, love COM (one of my least favorites, but I don't deal with cross-language runtime/binary compatibility). I found this StackOverflow link on a huge discussion of the death of Silverlight, saying it was the first casualty of a "death to managed code" campaign: http://forums.silverlight.net/post/612643.aspx http://forums.silverlight.net/post/612643.aspx
    - andersh 15y ago
chadaustin 15y ago
I appreciate Microsoft's renewed commitment to native code but I'm rather disappointed at the limited C++11 support in the upcoming Visual Studio 2012 http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2011/09/12/10209291.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2011/09/12/10209291.a... especially when compared with gcc and clang. gcc: http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html clang: http://clang.llvm.org/cxx_status.html http://clang.llvm.org/cxx_status.html To pick a few examples, range-based for, variadic templates, and non-static data member initializers are huge improvements to the language.
- sho_hn 15y ago
  Now if you're looking for a Linux IDE with C++11 support, KDevelop already does a lot more.
- amcintyre 15y ago
  They couldn't do full C++11 support because they were busy with this key feature: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/39717/Microsoft_gamifies_Visual_Studio_with_achievements.php http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/39717/Microsoft_gamifies_...
- InclinedPlane 15y ago
  Visual Studio is still on a pretty long ship cycle (2-3 years), which makes it hard for them to pick up on new stuff like this. Perhaps they'll add more support in the SP1, if we're lucky.
- haberman 15y ago
  > I'm rather disappointed at the limited C++11 support in the upcoming Visual Studio 2012 As a C user who's been waiting 12 years for MSVC to implement C99, I had to sardonically laugh when I read this. They don't even let you declare variables in the middle of a block! Ironically the excuse they always give is that their customers want them to dedicate more of their time to C++11, not C: http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/345360/visual-c-should-support-c99 http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/3...

72 points by alpb 15y ago

> "C++11 feels like a new language" says C++ creator Bjarne Stroustrup Great. Finally a reason enough to go back to C :-)

bediger 15y ago

Isn't this a little weird, given that MSFT wants people to use "managed code", the CLI, and all the attendant software? Or is it telling us that people who get to choose (free software) aren't going to be using C++11? I can't tell.

astrodust 15y ago
What's wrong with the new standard? GNU g++ will be supporting it, right?
- apaprocki 15y ago
  The compiler with probably the most existing support right now is gcc 4.7. I've been hearing that C++11 may become the standard mode as of 4.8. http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-4.7/cxx0x_status.html http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-4.7/cxx0x_status.html
andersh 15y ago
>Isn't this a little weird, given that MSFT wants people to use "managed code" What's really weird is MS sell a C++ compiler they don't want people to use! >Or is it telling us that people who get to choose (free software) aren't going to be using C++11? That'd be a real shame, for people to miss out on C++11 goodness just because they're MS-phobic.
btn 15y ago
I think Herb Sutter talked a fair bit about this at the Build and C++ and Beyond conferences last year. The gist of it (IIRC) is that while managed code may be better for developer productivity, C++ continues to win when it comes to performance/size. Microsoft's trying to take a "best of both worlds" approach: promoting C++11 as a first-class language on Windows (WinRT), and making interop between managed and C++ code easier (C++/CX, formerly C++/CLI, formerly Managed C++).
jed_s 15y ago
Windows 8 WinRT is unmanaged/native; this has caused a conspiracy theory blaming infighting between Microsoft teams: Why is WinRT unmanaged? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7457371/why-is-winrt-unmanaged/7524710#7524710 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7457371/why-is-winrt-unma...
- iso8859-1 15y ago
  Which of those answers do you prefer? Accepted one seems a bit far fetched and simplistic. As Tatiana notes: "SharePoint is .NET, and it's half of Office.". Also see Larry's comment.
  - jed_s 15y ago
    I'll warn in advance that this is the jazz hands answer, because it's really impossible to tell. I doubt any one person decreed WinRT should be native; most likely it was the best of many compromises. Anyone willing to name names while documenting the internal politics that went along with the decision(s) could write quite the page-turner! * I could see decisions being influenced by long-term career prospects, but believe that people would be smart enough to hide most of this by working harder to find evidence supporting the direction they needed the tech to go. * According to my limited understanding, Microsoft long ago threw out a bunch of OS-level managed development pre-Vista (WinFS-type stuff) in part because of performance related issues. * ASP.NET (SharePoint) / managed code server-side is not going away any time soon, if ever... it's just too easy (and server hardware can typically handle any overhead). * .NET client-side could go either way; I think this is what the accepted answer is saying (eg. Silverlight as this decade's VB6 - convenient LOB tool killed with no direct transition to new tech) * Mono/Unity 3d/etc. are wildcards here, particularly as they support C# for non-Microsoft platforms (especially iPhone/Android). * Microsoft, or at least powerful people within Microsoft, love COM (one of my least favorites, but I don't deal with cross-language runtime/binary compatibility). I found this StackOverflow link on a huge discussion of the death of Silverlight, saying it was the first casualty of a "death to managed code" campaign: http://forums.silverlight.net/post/612643.aspx http://forums.silverlight.net/post/612643.aspx
  - andersh 15y ago

chadaustin 15y ago

I appreciate Microsoft's renewed commitment to native code but I'm rather disappointed at the limited C++11 support in the upcoming Visual Studio 2012 http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2011/09/12/10209291.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2011/09/12/10209291.a... especially when compared with gcc and clang. gcc: http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html clang: http://clang.llvm.org/cxx_status.html http://clang.llvm.org/cxx_status.html To pick a few examples, range-based for, variadic templates, and non-static data member initializers are huge improvements to the language.

sho_hn 15y ago
Now if you're looking for a Linux IDE with C++11 support, KDevelop already does a lot more.
amcintyre 15y ago
They couldn't do full C++11 support because they were busy with this key feature: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/39717/Microsoft_gamifies_Visual_Studio_with_achievements.php http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/39717/Microsoft_gamifies_...
InclinedPlane 15y ago
Visual Studio is still on a pretty long ship cycle (2-3 years), which makes it hard for them to pick up on new stuff like this. Perhaps they'll add more support in the SP1, if we're lucky.
haberman 15y ago
> I'm rather disappointed at the limited C++11 support in the upcoming Visual Studio 2012 As a C user who's been waiting 12 years for MSVC to implement C99, I had to sardonically laugh when I read this. They don't even let you declare variables in the middle of a block! Ironically the excuse they always give is that their customers want them to dedicate more of their time to C++11, not C: http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/345360/visual-c-should-support-c99 http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/3...