4 ms·

These are middle class jobs, not some sucky jobs. You are too comfortable where you are, hence you don't see other people's plight. Try to build a factory in t

by mudil 15y ago

These are middle class jobs, not some sucky jobs. You are too comfortable where you are, hence you don't see other people's plight. Try to build a factory in the US. By the time all the environmental reviews and other regulations are observed, and law suits from Sierra Club and others are cleared, there is simply no way to build the factory! Hence no one builds them, hence ...a current Apple executive said. “The U.S. has stopped producing people with the skills we need.”

angstrom 15y ago
I know plenty of factories in the US. They're robotic. The US churns more product out now than it ever has, but it employs fewer and fewer people to do it. These are the productivity gains from 40 years of computerized automation taking its toll on the American worker. It's not a skills problem, it's much worse. If it's a skills problem the only solution is for humans to acquire the skill of working 24/7 performing repetitive tasks with a predictable maintenance schedule.
- mudil 15y ago
  If you don't have factories, even robotic ones, you don't have engineers, middle management, suppliers, distributors, etc etc. And these are not sucky jobs.
  - angstrom 15y ago
    They're not, but the supply chains are already in place, which brings up the other elephant in the room. If labor isn't the issue pollution is. As EPA laws tightened China's lax oversight beckoned. It's not easy to find a place in the US that will look the other way and is located close to labor/transportation.
UK-Al05 15y ago
In the UK these are defiantly not classed as middle class jobs. Heck teachers are only JUST about considered lower middle class in the UK. Working on the shop floor is not a nice job. Humans are just not designed for fitting one component for 8 hours a day with little variation. It's one the great tricks america has done, almost everyone thinks they're middle class. In the UK i'm not even sure i'm middle class.
- jnbiche 15y ago
  And yet the most amazing thing of all is that despite our expansive definition of the middle class -- the middle class is getting smaller.
  - tsotha 15y ago
    The middle class is smaller because we've added fifty million immigrants (legal and illegal) to the bottom end. So of course the people who were here make up a smaller percentage of the total.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    Yes - the middle class is getting smaller because more people are reaching the top. http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/288306/guest-post-scott-winship-obama-administrations-questionable-mobility-claims-reihan-sal http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/288306/guest-post-scott...
    - diogenescynic 15y ago
      50% of Americans made less than $26,000 a year in 2010: http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2010 http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2010 Wages have been stagnant since the 70s, while healthcare costs and cost of living have skyrocketed: http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/higher-prices-stagnant-wages-chip-at-savings-rate/2011/11/23/gIQABV4rpN_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/higher-prices... And, if Federal Reserve created inflation hadn't destroyed their purchasing power, they'd be 20% ahead on wages at the bottom than they are today even if those wages had stayed at the same literal dollar amount they were at over forty years ago. The middle class is getting hammered and because they have less disposable income they save less and spend less, hence the economy grows slower. Wages as a percent of the economy are basically the lowest ever: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/26/business/for-companies-the-good-old-days-are-now.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/26/business/for-companies-the...
      - yummyfajitas 15y ago
chadmalik 15y ago
Right, a slave labor job at Foxconn staffed by villagers who went to the city and are desperate for any salary whatsoever are middle class jobs. Makes total sense. The idea that American works lack skills is laughable, and that Apple exec is lying. What he/she really means is "there aren't enough people willing to work for under-market pay in an unreasonable work environment. Why should Apple and others refuse to comply with US environmental and labor standards? Matter of fact WHY DOES THE US HAVE THOSE STANDARDS if we're just going to aid and abet companies like Apple going to third world dictatorships and hiring slaves to build their products and destroying those nations' environments? I'm typing this on a Macbook pro but this is the last Apple product I buy ever. They are a completely unethical company that uses slave labor. I can imagine what the US Apple-apology brigade would have been saying about efforts to ban slavery in the United States: "we can't afford to pay more for cotton! if we have to pay people to make our goods instead of using force to make them slaves, why we might not be able to buy as much stuff". Admit it there is NO excuse for supporting this stuff other than you value your electronic gadgets more than workers and the environment in other countries. You do not care about people or the planet, only your own ability to maximize consumption. That is the value system being advocated for here.
beachgeek 15y ago
This is exactly right! Its excessive regulations and crazy labor laws that stop people from building factories in much of the US. I am mostly leftist on much of my view and I'm sure people here will downvote me, but unions have screwed workers. People in the US can continue saying these are sucky jobs etc, but every Chinese person I've met who's worked at these factories has claimed they've enjoyed the experience. Although the ones I met said they did it while putting themselves through school etc.
- UK-Al05 15y ago
  Did you miss the news about Chinese workers threatening mass suicide?
  - technoslut 15y ago
    The suicide rate for Foxconn workers is actually less than China at large which is telling about how life is over there for most people.
  - beachgeek 15y ago
    OK, what do you propose as the solution then? If you read the article none of the executives quoted directly mention how cheap Chinese labor is. They talk about how quickly they can "scale up or down." There are only 2 countries where you can scale up your semi-skilled work force rapidly, and the other country hasn't started ramping up for manufacturing just yet. Regarding your comment about suicide, China for various reasons has a rather high suicide rate. Its not clear to me if the suicide rate amongst FoxConn workers is just a symptom of their society or something really bad about FoxConn itself.
    - Natsu 15y ago
      > OK, what do you propose as the solution then? Keep pressure on them to improve. Not just Foxconn, which is getting singled out (and will, most likely, end up being one of the better ones due to scrutiny after this blows over), but on all of the factories until they reform. Specifically, they appear to pay no attention at all to worker safety. You'd think that after things like that horrible carcinogenic Sanlu milk, they would be more interested in things like chemical safety, but I guess they're not quite there yet. While America is by no means perfect, they should copy us and have people monitoring workplace injuries, require worker education on safety, require appropriate protective gear for anyone doing dangerous things, and hold companies responsible for the health & safety of their workforce. It's not impossible to improve. I don't expect them to be perfect, but there are plenty of things they could be doing which, according to the reports, they are not.
Vivtek 15y ago
Oh, I guess that explains the suicides at Foxconn, then.

by mudil 15y ago

angstrom 15y ago

I know plenty of factories in the US. They're robotic. The US churns more product out now than it ever has, but it employs fewer and fewer people to do it. These are the productivity gains from 40 years of computerized automation taking its toll on the American worker. It's not a skills problem, it's much worse. If it's a skills problem the only solution is for humans to acquire the skill of working 24/7 performing repetitive tasks with a predictable maintenance schedule.

mudil 15y ago
If you don't have factories, even robotic ones, you don't have engineers, middle management, suppliers, distributors, etc etc. And these are not sucky jobs.
- angstrom 15y ago
  They're not, but the supply chains are already in place, which brings up the other elephant in the room. If labor isn't the issue pollution is. As EPA laws tightened China's lax oversight beckoned. It's not easy to find a place in the US that will look the other way and is located close to labor/transportation.

UK-Al05 15y ago

In the UK these are defiantly not classed as middle class jobs. Heck teachers are only JUST about considered lower middle class in the UK. Working on the shop floor is not a nice job. Humans are just not designed for fitting one component for 8 hours a day with little variation. It's one the great tricks america has done, almost everyone thinks they're middle class. In the UK i'm not even sure i'm middle class.

jnbiche 15y ago
And yet the most amazing thing of all is that despite our expansive definition of the middle class -- the middle class is getting smaller.
- tsotha 15y ago
  The middle class is smaller because we've added fifty million immigrants (legal and illegal) to the bottom end. So of course the people who were here make up a smaller percentage of the total.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  Yes - the middle class is getting smaller because more people are reaching the top. http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/288306/guest-post-scott-winship-obama-administrations-questionable-mobility-claims-reihan-sal http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/288306/guest-post-scott...
  - diogenescynic 15y ago
    50% of Americans made less than $26,000 a year in 2010: http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2010 http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2010 Wages have been stagnant since the 70s, while healthcare costs and cost of living have skyrocketed: http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/higher-prices-stagnant-wages-chip-at-savings-rate/2011/11/23/gIQABV4rpN_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/higher-prices... And, if Federal Reserve created inflation hadn't destroyed their purchasing power, they'd be 20% ahead on wages at the bottom than they are today even if those wages had stayed at the same literal dollar amount they were at over forty years ago. The middle class is getting hammered and because they have less disposable income they save less and spend less, hence the economy grows slower. Wages as a percent of the economy are basically the lowest ever: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/26/business/for-companies-the-good-old-days-are-now.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/26/business/for-companies-the...
    - yummyfajitas 15y ago

chadmalik 15y ago

Right, a slave labor job at Foxconn staffed by villagers who went to the city and are desperate for any salary whatsoever are middle class jobs. Makes total sense. The idea that American works lack skills is laughable, and that Apple exec is lying. What he/she really means is "there aren't enough people willing to work for under-market pay in an unreasonable work environment. Why should Apple and others refuse to comply with US environmental and labor standards? Matter of fact WHY DOES THE US HAVE THOSE STANDARDS if we're just going to aid and abet companies like Apple going to third world dictatorships and hiring slaves to build their products and destroying those nations' environments? I'm typing this on a Macbook pro but this is the last Apple product I buy ever. They are a completely unethical company that uses slave labor. I can imagine what the US Apple-apology brigade would have been saying about efforts to ban slavery in the United States: "we can't afford to pay more for cotton! if we have to pay people to make our goods instead of using force to make them slaves, why we might not be able to buy as much stuff". Admit it there is NO excuse for supporting this stuff other than you value your electronic gadgets more than workers and the environment in other countries. You do not care about people or the planet, only your own ability to maximize consumption. That is the value system being advocated for here.

beachgeek 15y ago

This is exactly right! Its excessive regulations and crazy labor laws that stop people from building factories in much of the US. I am mostly leftist on much of my view and I'm sure people here will downvote me, but unions have screwed workers. People in the US can continue saying these are sucky jobs etc, but every Chinese person I've met who's worked at these factories has claimed they've enjoyed the experience. Although the ones I met said they did it while putting themselves through school etc.

UK-Al05 15y ago
Did you miss the news about Chinese workers threatening mass suicide?
- technoslut 15y ago
  The suicide rate for Foxconn workers is actually less than China at large which is telling about how life is over there for most people.
- beachgeek 15y ago
  OK, what do you propose as the solution then? If you read the article none of the executives quoted directly mention how cheap Chinese labor is. They talk about how quickly they can "scale up or down." There are only 2 countries where you can scale up your semi-skilled work force rapidly, and the other country hasn't started ramping up for manufacturing just yet. Regarding your comment about suicide, China for various reasons has a rather high suicide rate. Its not clear to me if the suicide rate amongst FoxConn workers is just a symptom of their society or something really bad about FoxConn itself.
  - Natsu 15y ago
    > OK, what do you propose as the solution then? Keep pressure on them to improve. Not just Foxconn, which is getting singled out (and will, most likely, end up being one of the better ones due to scrutiny after this blows over), but on all of the factories until they reform. Specifically, they appear to pay no attention at all to worker safety. You'd think that after things like that horrible carcinogenic Sanlu milk, they would be more interested in things like chemical safety, but I guess they're not quite there yet. While America is by no means perfect, they should copy us and have people monitoring workplace injuries, require worker education on safety, require appropriate protective gear for anyone doing dangerous things, and hold companies responsible for the health & safety of their workforce. It's not impossible to improve. I don't expect them to be perfect, but there are plenty of things they could be doing which, according to the reports, they are not.

Vivtek 15y ago

Oh, I guess that explains the suicides at Foxconn, then.