7 ms·

Where it gets complicated is dealing with dog whistles. Because you’re not actually expressing an opinion that liberals disagree with. No one wants a kid who ex

by Spivak 4y ago

Where it gets complicated is dealing with dog whistles. Because you’re not actually expressing an opinion that liberals disagree with. No one wants a kid who expresses some gender nonconformity to be pressured into identifying as trans or transitioning. The liberal position is and always has been such things should be made available to everyone with appropriate medical and psychiatric supervision. But in our shirty new world online discourse the game is now to say something that is obviously true “kids shouldn’t be forced to transition” but then actually mean something else “kids shouldn’t be allowed to transition” and then introduce legislation to that effect. So if you go on the internet and say these kinds of things that no one really disagrees with like it’s a hot take then people pick up pretty fast what you mean. The people caught it the crossfire are unfortunately those folks who actually hold the literal opinion that got appropriated because bigots realized it they could use it as a whistle.

nailer 4y ago
[flagged]
- Spivak 4y ago
  Transitioning != Surgery You have to be 18 for GRS or 16 if you have very very long standing documented history of debilitating dysphoria. It is the same for top surgery and any other cosmetic procedures. HRT isn’t until puberty. Kids transitioning is name, pronouns, clothes, and where they stand in boy girl boy girl lines at school. I swear ever time I talk to people about these issues at events or whatever people will go on long rants and end with me being like yep, not only go I agree but that’s how it currently works. Like the accommodation that trans kids/teens want with locker rooms is single person stalls so they don’t have to change in front of their classmates or awkwardly maneuver around a toilet but the rhetoric you see is completely opposite of that. Genuinely, I am sorry and what or whoever made you feel like you were bigoted or transphobic for basically agreeing with WPATH standards.
  - nailer 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - Spivak 4y ago
      Yes, at 12, when puberty starts and got GRS at 16 because of the aforementioned long documented history of dysphoria which is the minimum. The only thing trans guys are encouraged to do is if they bind to do it safely.
      - nailer 4y ago
        [flagged]
        Spivak 4y ago
        I think ultimately this is where we’re gonna have to agree to disagree because to me, someone who works with trans people all the time, this is a gross mischaracterization of what it means to be trans. Manliness or womanliness has nothing to do with it, I know trans women who are super butch and do metalwork and know trans men who are femboys. The “wrongness” trans people feel their whole lives and the distress it causes (dysphoria) runs through to the very core. The most commonly reported age where trans people “know” is 5-6 well before they have any idea about what being a boy or girl even means. Differentiating between “boy who is gnc” and “trans girl” is why every part of this process has multiple safeguards. And the reason why this matters and why the trans community doesn’t just say “whatever just make them wait until 18” is because going on HRT in early adolescence means they will grow up virtually indistinguishable from a cis person and get to live a much happier and safer life. What $10 pills can do at 14 costs $50-$75k or is just impossible later.
        nailer 4y ago
        [flagged]
        4y ago
- flangola7 4y ago
  You can't say something bigoted and then try to add a disclaimer and somehow make it magically not big bigoted. Leave pediatric medicine up to the pediatric doctors. I have a niece who is transitioning and it's attitudes like this that endanger her wellbeing.
  - nailer 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - flangola7 4y ago
      Forbidden? Under what law? Not to mention, a few cherry picked oddball psychologists does not a consensus make. There are civil engineers that will say 9/11 was a thermite inside job and physicians that say crystals have healing powers. That doesn't mean they are right or even represent the scientific community's broad consensus. I also suspect most of the people spreading transphobic messages have never had a close openly trans friend, partner, or family member.
      - violat 4y ago
        > I also suspect most of the people spreading transphobic messages have never had a close openly trans friend, partner, or family member. Many gender-critical women are those who have experienced the trans phenomenon via a man in their life deciding that he is now a woman, and observing first hand the misogyny in his expression of what he thinks makes him a woman. The accounts of transwidows (women whose husbands transitioned) are particularly depressing and painful to read, as their marriage breaks down while he transforms himself into an offensive caricature of womanhood.
        Spivak 4y ago
        I really feel for those women, having a partner transition is hard on any relationship. The person you fall in love with is your own perception of who the other person is and all that gets shattered in an instant because of a burden they’ve carrying for their whole lives finally becomes too heavy to bear and it changes their relationship forever. Some people are able to make it through that, others aren’t, and it’s okay either way. But when the relationship ends right after they start transitioning they don’t see their partner work through all their feelings, traumas, and see the other side. You’re right, that lots of trans women lean into the stereotypes of womanhood right after they come out. And that’s because they’re going through all the awkward cringy phases that teenagers go through. Turns out those phases are more to do with the process of self-discovery than it does age. Because lord knows when I was 15 I wore skirts too short, way too much makeup, and was past the girly phase and already on the “reject pink” phase. They’re learning how to be women just like we all did. It is a source of endless fun teasing one of the women I volunteer with who’s currently going through an emo phase. So maybe it’s cringy but I choose to see the good in that someone is able to be so sincere and authentic and I would feel bad ruining her innocent fun. And just like all other women they figure themselves out and mellow.
omgomgomgomg 4y ago
They absolutelly should not. Nobody is fit for conrracting while underage. I would go as far and invoke my own freedom of speech and say kids should not be allowed to be targeted by any dog whistling or promot material period Wonder how tolerant these folks would be with my view.
nopelane 4y ago
The term "transition" as used here is a euphemism that covers interfering with a child's puberty in a way that is likely to sterilize them for life if the treatment persists, and surgical destruction of breasts, and in some cases, genitals. I think most people, understanding the reality of this in stark terms, would be dead against children transitioning.
- trieste92 4y ago
  > The term "transition" as used here is a euphemism that covers interfering with a child's puberty in a way that is likely to sterilize them for life if the treatment persists, and surgical destruction of breasts, and in some cases, genitals. > I think most people, understanding the reality of this in stark terms, would be dead against children transitioning. The only reason why this hasn't been outright banned for minors yet is because older voters don't know what's happening. It's funny, I see a NYT article that literally just repeats these things out loud so that everyone can see what's happening, and then they get attacked for just describing what's happening What's being done right now is so damning, no criticism is necessary. Only visibility. The people who want to hide facts from the public can only do this for so long
trieste92 4y ago
> but then actually mean something else “kids shouldn’t be allowed to transition” and then introduce legislation to that effect. Minors aren't capable of consent. The treatments have permanent side effects and lead to sterilization. One of the drugs used to aid in "transitioning" is lupron, which is also used to sterilize sex offenders The only reason why any of this is allowed to happen is because the general population doesn't see what's happening. Criticism or "explanations" aren't necessary, all that's needed is visibility so that everyone can see what's being done and vote accordingly
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  > Minors aren't capable of consent. Which is why the permission of their parents acts as a limit on what they're able to agree to, in this case as in all others. > The treatments have permanent side effects Yes, that's the point. > lead to sterilization. One of the drugs used to aid in "transitioning" is lupron, which is also used to sterilize sex offenders This is pure bad faith fear mongering. It doesn't matter what else the drugs could do. Titanium is used in missiles, chemotherapy drugs can be used for euthenasia. None of those are what we're talking about, so talk about what we're talking about not some other unrelated thing. > The only reason why any of this is allowed to happen is because the general population doesn't see what's happening. There's no "general population" this is being slyly pushed on. People are making decisions within their families. Each individual is making choices with medical consideration and the guidance and, if a minor, ultimately the permission of their families and doctors. "Allowed" is a telling choice of words though! You're advocating for a state-enforced limit on what people are allowed to choose for themselves. --- And additionally, and very seriously, wake the fuck up and pay attention. The anti-trans moral panic is the tip of the spear of fascism in north america. You had a clean chance to see that and change course last year when Putin explicitly used anti-LGBT reasoning as part of his justification for the invasion of ukraine! Look at what Orban is up to, what comes along with this rhetoric. Look at what you are being used to accomplish.
  - trieste92 4y ago
    > "Allowed" is a telling choice of words though! You're advocating for a state-enforced limit on what people are allowed to choose for themselves. To children. What people are allowed to do to children > Which is why the permission of their parents acts as a limit on what they're able to agree to, in this case as in all others. If a parent comes forward and says "I consent to my child getting sterilized", should that be the only criterion necessary? You said "all" here, so you think that the case I provided is also covered? > The anti-trans moral panic is the tip of the spear of fascism in north america https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/16/as-spain-advances-trans-rights-sweden-backtracks-on-gender-affirming-treatments-for-teens https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/16/as-spain-advances-t... Would you describe Sweden as a fascist country? For (generally) prohibiting giving hormonal therapies to children?

by Spivak 4y ago

nailer 4y ago

[flagged]

Spivak 4y ago
Transitioning != Surgery You have to be 18 for GRS or 16 if you have very very long standing documented history of debilitating dysphoria. It is the same for top surgery and any other cosmetic procedures. HRT isn’t until puberty. Kids transitioning is name, pronouns, clothes, and where they stand in boy girl boy girl lines at school. I swear ever time I talk to people about these issues at events or whatever people will go on long rants and end with me being like yep, not only go I agree but that’s how it currently works. Like the accommodation that trans kids/teens want with locker rooms is single person stalls so they don’t have to change in front of their classmates or awkwardly maneuver around a toilet but the rhetoric you see is completely opposite of that. Genuinely, I am sorry and what or whoever made you feel like you were bigoted or transphobic for basically agreeing with WPATH standards.
- nailer 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - Spivak 4y ago
    Yes, at 12, when puberty starts and got GRS at 16 because of the aforementioned long documented history of dysphoria which is the minimum. The only thing trans guys are encouraged to do is if they bind to do it safely.
    - nailer 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - Spivak 4y ago
        I think ultimately this is where we’re gonna have to agree to disagree because to me, someone who works with trans people all the time, this is a gross mischaracterization of what it means to be trans. Manliness or womanliness has nothing to do with it, I know trans women who are super butch and do metalwork and know trans men who are femboys. The “wrongness” trans people feel their whole lives and the distress it causes (dysphoria) runs through to the very core. The most commonly reported age where trans people “know” is 5-6 well before they have any idea about what being a boy or girl even means. Differentiating between “boy who is gnc” and “trans girl” is why every part of this process has multiple safeguards. And the reason why this matters and why the trans community doesn’t just say “whatever just make them wait until 18” is because going on HRT in early adolescence means they will grow up virtually indistinguishable from a cis person and get to live a much happier and safer life. What $10 pills can do at 14 costs $50-$75k or is just impossible later.
        nailer 4y ago
        [flagged]
        4y ago
flangola7 4y ago
You can't say something bigoted and then try to add a disclaimer and somehow make it magically not big bigoted. Leave pediatric medicine up to the pediatric doctors. I have a niece who is transitioning and it's attitudes like this that endanger her wellbeing.
- nailer 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - flangola7 4y ago
    Forbidden? Under what law? Not to mention, a few cherry picked oddball psychologists does not a consensus make. There are civil engineers that will say 9/11 was a thermite inside job and physicians that say crystals have healing powers. That doesn't mean they are right or even represent the scientific community's broad consensus. I also suspect most of the people spreading transphobic messages have never had a close openly trans friend, partner, or family member.
    - violat 4y ago
      > I also suspect most of the people spreading transphobic messages have never had a close openly trans friend, partner, or family member. Many gender-critical women are those who have experienced the trans phenomenon via a man in their life deciding that he is now a woman, and observing first hand the misogyny in his expression of what he thinks makes him a woman. The accounts of transwidows (women whose husbands transitioned) are particularly depressing and painful to read, as their marriage breaks down while he transforms himself into an offensive caricature of womanhood.
      - Spivak 4y ago
        I really feel for those women, having a partner transition is hard on any relationship. The person you fall in love with is your own perception of who the other person is and all that gets shattered in an instant because of a burden they’ve carrying for their whole lives finally becomes too heavy to bear and it changes their relationship forever. Some people are able to make it through that, others aren’t, and it’s okay either way. But when the relationship ends right after they start transitioning they don’t see their partner work through all their feelings, traumas, and see the other side. You’re right, that lots of trans women lean into the stereotypes of womanhood right after they come out. And that’s because they’re going through all the awkward cringy phases that teenagers go through. Turns out those phases are more to do with the process of self-discovery than it does age. Because lord knows when I was 15 I wore skirts too short, way too much makeup, and was past the girly phase and already on the “reject pink” phase. They’re learning how to be women just like we all did. It is a source of endless fun teasing one of the women I volunteer with who’s currently going through an emo phase. So maybe it’s cringy but I choose to see the good in that someone is able to be so sincere and authentic and I would feel bad ruining her innocent fun. And just like all other women they figure themselves out and mellow.

omgomgomgomg 4y ago

They absolutelly should not. Nobody is fit for conrracting while underage. I would go as far and invoke my own freedom of speech and say kids should not be allowed to be targeted by any dog whistling or promot material period Wonder how tolerant these folks would be with my view.

nopelane 4y ago

The term "transition" as used here is a euphemism that covers interfering with a child's puberty in a way that is likely to sterilize them for life if the treatment persists, and surgical destruction of breasts, and in some cases, genitals. I think most people, understanding the reality of this in stark terms, would be dead against children transitioning.

trieste92 4y ago
> The term "transition" as used here is a euphemism that covers interfering with a child's puberty in a way that is likely to sterilize them for life if the treatment persists, and surgical destruction of breasts, and in some cases, genitals. > I think most people, understanding the reality of this in stark terms, would be dead against children transitioning. The only reason why this hasn't been outright banned for minors yet is because older voters don't know what's happening. It's funny, I see a NYT article that literally just repeats these things out loud so that everyone can see what's happening, and then they get attacked for just describing what's happening What's being done right now is so damning, no criticism is necessary. Only visibility. The people who want to hide facts from the public can only do this for so long

trieste92 4y ago

> but then actually mean something else “kids shouldn’t be allowed to transition” and then introduce legislation to that effect. Minors aren't capable of consent. The treatments have permanent side effects and lead to sterilization. One of the drugs used to aid in "transitioning" is lupron, which is also used to sterilize sex offenders The only reason why any of this is allowed to happen is because the general population doesn't see what's happening. Criticism or "explanations" aren't necessary, all that's needed is visibility so that everyone can see what's being done and vote accordingly

giraffe_lady 4y ago
> Minors aren't capable of consent. Which is why the permission of their parents acts as a limit on what they're able to agree to, in this case as in all others. > The treatments have permanent side effects Yes, that's the point. > lead to sterilization. One of the drugs used to aid in "transitioning" is lupron, which is also used to sterilize sex offenders This is pure bad faith fear mongering. It doesn't matter what else the drugs could do. Titanium is used in missiles, chemotherapy drugs can be used for euthenasia. None of those are what we're talking about, so talk about what we're talking about not some other unrelated thing. > The only reason why any of this is allowed to happen is because the general population doesn't see what's happening. There's no "general population" this is being slyly pushed on. People are making decisions within their families. Each individual is making choices with medical consideration and the guidance and, if a minor, ultimately the permission of their families and doctors. "Allowed" is a telling choice of words though! You're advocating for a state-enforced limit on what people are allowed to choose for themselves. --- And additionally, and very seriously, wake the fuck up and pay attention. The anti-trans moral panic is the tip of the spear of fascism in north america. You had a clean chance to see that and change course last year when Putin explicitly used anti-LGBT reasoning as part of his justification for the invasion of ukraine! Look at what Orban is up to, what comes along with this rhetoric. Look at what you are being used to accomplish.
- trieste92 4y ago
  > "Allowed" is a telling choice of words though! You're advocating for a state-enforced limit on what people are allowed to choose for themselves. To children. What people are allowed to do to children > Which is why the permission of their parents acts as a limit on what they're able to agree to, in this case as in all others. If a parent comes forward and says "I consent to my child getting sterilized", should that be the only criterion necessary? You said "all" here, so you think that the case I provided is also covered? > The anti-trans moral panic is the tip of the spear of fascism in north america https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/16/as-spain-advances-trans-rights-sweden-backtracks-on-gender-affirming-treatments-for-teens https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/16/as-spain-advances-t... Would you describe Sweden as a fascist country? For (generally) prohibiting giving hormonal therapies to children?