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> Even if you strip out the supernatural parts, a religion provides all sorts of notions about fairness, justice, forgiveness, family life, the rules and order,

by mtts 4y ago

> Even if you strip out the supernatural parts, a religion provides all sorts of notions about fairness, justice, forgiveness, family life, the rules and order, etc. Most people would call that a culture. One were most people do not go to church on Sunday and politicians, even if they’re from a religious background, like Angela Merkel, don’t ever talk about God. And one that is very different from the one across the Atlantic where “in God we trust” is the national motto and politicians make sure to fluff up their religious credentials.

rayiner 4y ago
> Most people would call that a culture. Sure. But in Europe that culture co-evolved with more than a 1,000 years of Christianity being central to society. The cultural inheritance of Christianity survives whether people go to church or not. The same is true for those Muslim immigrants. They are culturally Muslim. It’s those differences in culture, rooted in religion, that are the source of the conflict, not theology in the abstract. > One were most people do not go to church on Sunday and politicians, even if they’re from a religious background, like Angela Merkel, don’t ever talk about God. The German system of offering education in Christianity in public schools would be illegal in America. In Germany abortion is still technically illegal, and is restricted after 12 weeks, whereas in most of America it’s available up to 24 weeks. In Bavaria the government can require Christian crosses to be displayed in all public buildings. In America that would be illegal. So why doesn’t Merkel talk about Christianity? Is it because Christianity has less influence on government and society in Germany? Or is it because Germany secularism carved out a sphere for Christianity in society, and, unlike in America, nobody is trying to eliminate that sphere?
AlchemistCamp 4y ago
This sounds like a very outdated or caricatured view of the US (where I lived for half of 2022 and also 2012-2015). In those four years I didn't hear the phrase "in God we trust" even one time and the vast majority people I met were either athiest, agnostic or identified as Christian but hadn't been to church in years didn't seem to hold many religious beliefs but had some family background or cultural connection. If you look, you can definitely religious people but it's not most people or even close. The one large exception to this is the large number of immigrants who were much more likely to be religious and church-going.
- rayiner 4y ago
  It’s not inaccurate. Soon as you step outside a major city, the majority of Americans go to church weekly. The percentage of Americans who pray daily is comparable to Iran: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-levels-of-prayer-u-s-is-an-outlier-among-wealthy-nations/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-l...
  - slaw 4y ago
    Study from 8 years ago. No longer true.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      You think a seismic shift in those numbers happened in the last year? 81% of Americans still say they believe in god: https://news.gallup.com/poll/393737/belief-god-dips-new-low.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/393737/belief-god-dips-new-low..... It’s down only 6 percentage points since 2013.
      - slaw 4y ago
        They may still believe in god, but not pray daily.
onetimeusename 4y ago
> And one that is very different from the one across the Atlantic where “in God we trust” is the national motto What is your point about this? The motto has a long tradition almost as old as the country and it's really not uncommon for European countries to reference God in their national or even unofficial national motto. > politicians make sure to fluff up their religious credentials. Like who and how? Most politicians don't do this. Politicians in the US are generally not very religious in my opinion. Ironically, the ones I can think of that are most outspoken about their religion are two Catholics who are at odds with their church leadership over abortion and gay marriage, and Muslims who I somewhat doubt practice Islam. I am struggling to even think of more overtly religious politicians. I just think media reports skew how irreligious politics in the US actually is. I am sure you can find some story about a speech somewhere reference religion or a cross being put up on a state courthouse or something somewhere but I don't think exceptions make the rule and this forgets that even just taking the federal government alone, there are hundreds of politicians who never bring up religion and things are actually much more mundane.

by mtts 4y ago

rayiner 4y ago

> Most people would call that a culture. Sure. But in Europe that culture co-evolved with more than a 1,000 years of Christianity being central to society. The cultural inheritance of Christianity survives whether people go to church or not. The same is true for those Muslim immigrants. They are culturally Muslim. It’s those differences in culture, rooted in religion, that are the source of the conflict, not theology in the abstract. > One were most people do not go to church on Sunday and politicians, even if they’re from a religious background, like Angela Merkel, don’t ever talk about God. The German system of offering education in Christianity in public schools would be illegal in America. In Germany abortion is still technically illegal, and is restricted after 12 weeks, whereas in most of America it’s available up to 24 weeks. In Bavaria the government can require Christian crosses to be displayed in all public buildings. In America that would be illegal. So why doesn’t Merkel talk about Christianity? Is it because Christianity has less influence on government and society in Germany? Or is it because Germany secularism carved out a sphere for Christianity in society, and, unlike in America, nobody is trying to eliminate that sphere?

AlchemistCamp 4y ago

This sounds like a very outdated or caricatured view of the US (where I lived for half of 2022 and also 2012-2015). In those four years I didn't hear the phrase "in God we trust" even one time and the vast majority people I met were either athiest, agnostic or identified as Christian but hadn't been to church in years didn't seem to hold many religious beliefs but had some family background or cultural connection. If you look, you can definitely religious people but it's not most people or even close. The one large exception to this is the large number of immigrants who were much more likely to be religious and church-going.

rayiner 4y ago
It’s not inaccurate. Soon as you step outside a major city, the majority of Americans go to church weekly. The percentage of Americans who pray daily is comparable to Iran: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-levels-of-prayer-u-s-is-an-outlier-among-wealthy-nations/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-l...
- slaw 4y ago
  Study from 8 years ago. No longer true.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    You think a seismic shift in those numbers happened in the last year? 81% of Americans still say they believe in god: https://news.gallup.com/poll/393737/belief-god-dips-new-low.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/393737/belief-god-dips-new-low..... It’s down only 6 percentage points since 2013.
    - slaw 4y ago
      They may still believe in god, but not pray daily.

onetimeusename 4y ago

> And one that is very different from the one across the Atlantic where “in God we trust” is the national motto What is your point about this? The motto has a long tradition almost as old as the country and it's really not uncommon for European countries to reference God in their national or even unofficial national motto. > politicians make sure to fluff up their religious credentials. Like who and how? Most politicians don't do this. Politicians in the US are generally not very religious in my opinion. Ironically, the ones I can think of that are most outspoken about their religion are two Catholics who are at odds with their church leadership over abortion and gay marriage, and Muslims who I somewhat doubt practice Islam. I am struggling to even think of more overtly religious politicians. I just think media reports skew how irreligious politics in the US actually is. I am sure you can find some story about a speech somewhere reference religion or a cross being put up on a state courthouse or something somewhere but I don't think exceptions make the rule and this forgets that even just taking the federal government alone, there are hundreds of politicians who never bring up religion and things are actually much more mundane.