4 ms·

> Hasn’t the growth of Islam in Europe been a large and growing political issue for the past decade? Probably more like two decades by now :-) The political pa

by mtts 4y ago

> Hasn’t the growth of Islam in Europe been a large and growing political issue for the past decade? Probably more like two decades by now :-) The political parties in Europe that pride themselves on anti-Islamism are themselves not religious all. And no one (of any significance) in Western Europe is arguing for a return to Christianity. Some parties advocate “Judeo-Christian values” but the various incarnations of this concept are nebulous at best and mostly completely unrecognizable to Jews and Christians. At the same time, many Western European countries are now majority atheist or at least majority unaffiliated with organized religion, so, no, religion is not at all a bigger deal in European politics at all.

rayiner 4y ago
Those political parties in France talk about “western culture” instead of “Christianity,” but western culture is fundamentally an outgrowth of Christianity. Even if you strip out the supernatural parts, a religion provides all sorts of notions about fairness, justice, forgiveness, family life, the rules and order, etc. People in Europe are still socialized into all that, even if they stop going to church. This is apparent if you come from a different religious background. I know people who are nominally atheist but you can tell their family is German Protestant a mile away.
- mtts 4y ago
  > Even if you strip out the supernatural parts, a religion provides all sorts of notions about fairness, justice, forgiveness, family life, the rules and order, etc. Most people would call that a culture. One were most people do not go to church on Sunday and politicians, even if they’re from a religious background, like Angela Merkel, don’t ever talk about God. And one that is very different from the one across the Atlantic where “in God we trust” is the national motto and politicians make sure to fluff up their religious credentials.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    > Most people would call that a culture. Sure. But in Europe that culture co-evolved with more than a 1,000 years of Christianity being central to society. The cultural inheritance of Christianity survives whether people go to church or not. The same is true for those Muslim immigrants. They are culturally Muslim. It’s those differences in culture, rooted in religion, that are the source of the conflict, not theology in the abstract. > One were most people do not go to church on Sunday and politicians, even if they’re from a religious background, like Angela Merkel, don’t ever talk about God. The German system of offering education in Christianity in public schools would be illegal in America. In Germany abortion is still technically illegal, and is restricted after 12 weeks, whereas in most of America it’s available up to 24 weeks. In Bavaria the government can require Christian crosses to be displayed in all public buildings. In America that would be illegal. So why doesn’t Merkel talk about Christianity? Is it because Christianity has less influence on government and society in Germany? Or is it because Germany secularism carved out a sphere for Christianity in society, and, unlike in America, nobody is trying to eliminate that sphere?
  - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
    This sounds like a very outdated or caricatured view of the US (where I lived for half of 2022 and also 2012-2015). In those four years I didn't hear the phrase "in God we trust" even one time and the vast majority people I met were either athiest, agnostic or identified as Christian but hadn't been to church in years didn't seem to hold many religious beliefs but had some family background or cultural connection. If you look, you can definitely religious people but it's not most people or even close. The one large exception to this is the large number of immigrants who were much more likely to be religious and church-going.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      It’s not inaccurate. Soon as you step outside a major city, the majority of Americans go to church weekly. The percentage of Americans who pray daily is comparable to Iran: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-levels-of-prayer-u-s-is-an-outlier-among-wealthy-nations/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-l...
      - slaw 4y ago
        Study from 8 years ago. No longer true.
        rayiner 4y ago
        You think a seismic shift in those numbers happened in the last year? 81% of Americans still say they believe in god: https://news.gallup.com/poll/393737/belief-god-dips-new-low.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/393737/belief-god-dips-new-low..... It’s down only 6 percentage points since 2013.
        slaw 4y ago
        They may still believe in god, but not pray daily.
  - onetimeusename 4y ago
    > And one that is very different from the one across the Atlantic where “in God we trust” is the national motto What is your point about this? The motto has a long tradition almost as old as the country and it's really not uncommon for European countries to reference God in their national or even unofficial national motto. > politicians make sure to fluff up their religious credentials. Like who and how? Most politicians don't do this. Politicians in the US are generally not very religious in my opinion. Ironically, the ones I can think of that are most outspoken about their religion are two Catholics who are at odds with their church leadership over abortion and gay marriage, and Muslims who I somewhat doubt practice Islam. I am struggling to even think of more overtly religious politicians. I just think media reports skew how irreligious politics in the US actually is. I am sure you can find some story about a speech somewhere reference religion or a cross being put up on a state courthouse or something somewhere but I don't think exceptions make the rule and this forgets that even just taking the federal government alone, there are hundreds of politicians who never bring up religion and things are actually much more mundane.
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  No one in France talks about western culture. The main parties which have made Islam a theme are staunchly anti-American. France has had a strong separation between the state and religion for a century. It’s one of the less religious country in the world and a significant part of the population is still strongly against any kind of religion especially the Catholic Church.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Remind me which country is the one with the hijab ban in schools? Is it america or is it France? And you want to tell me you’re not having a religious conflict over there?
    - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
      I have issue making sense of your reply to my comment. I don’t see how it’s against anything I said. As I wrote: "a significant part of the population is still strongly against any kind of religion". All religious signs are banned in schools not only the hijab. France views religion as strictly a private matter which has no place at all in the public sphere. That’s not a religious conflict just widely incompatible with the American view on the subjects.
      - rayiner 4y ago
        You don’t think the French ban on hijab has anything to do with religion? You think it’s just a coincidence and has nothing to do with the fact that Christianity happens not to generally require outwardly visible symbols of membership in a religious community, unlike Islam, Shikhism, Orthodox Judaism, etc.?
        WastingMyTime89 4y ago
        Remind me which faith in France add to shoot at civil servants to try to prevent them taking an inventory of the content of their cult places so it could be ceased by the state. I guess you don’t know or you wouldn’t write such idiocies. But even then, as a French, I would applaud anything going against religions. The faster we get ride of obscurantism the better the world.

by mtts 4y ago

rayiner 4y ago

Those political parties in France talk about “western culture” instead of “Christianity,” but western culture is fundamentally an outgrowth of Christianity. Even if you strip out the supernatural parts, a religion provides all sorts of notions about fairness, justice, forgiveness, family life, the rules and order, etc. People in Europe are still socialized into all that, even if they stop going to church. This is apparent if you come from a different religious background. I know people who are nominally atheist but you can tell their family is German Protestant a mile away.

mtts 4y ago
> Even if you strip out the supernatural parts, a religion provides all sorts of notions about fairness, justice, forgiveness, family life, the rules and order, etc. Most people would call that a culture. One were most people do not go to church on Sunday and politicians, even if they’re from a religious background, like Angela Merkel, don’t ever talk about God. And one that is very different from the one across the Atlantic where “in God we trust” is the national motto and politicians make sure to fluff up their religious credentials.
- rayiner 4y ago
  > Most people would call that a culture. Sure. But in Europe that culture co-evolved with more than a 1,000 years of Christianity being central to society. The cultural inheritance of Christianity survives whether people go to church or not. The same is true for those Muslim immigrants. They are culturally Muslim. It’s those differences in culture, rooted in religion, that are the source of the conflict, not theology in the abstract. > One were most people do not go to church on Sunday and politicians, even if they’re from a religious background, like Angela Merkel, don’t ever talk about God. The German system of offering education in Christianity in public schools would be illegal in America. In Germany abortion is still technically illegal, and is restricted after 12 weeks, whereas in most of America it’s available up to 24 weeks. In Bavaria the government can require Christian crosses to be displayed in all public buildings. In America that would be illegal. So why doesn’t Merkel talk about Christianity? Is it because Christianity has less influence on government and society in Germany? Or is it because Germany secularism carved out a sphere for Christianity in society, and, unlike in America, nobody is trying to eliminate that sphere?
- AlchemistCamp 4y ago
  This sounds like a very outdated or caricatured view of the US (where I lived for half of 2022 and also 2012-2015). In those four years I didn't hear the phrase "in God we trust" even one time and the vast majority people I met were either athiest, agnostic or identified as Christian but hadn't been to church in years didn't seem to hold many religious beliefs but had some family background or cultural connection. If you look, you can definitely religious people but it's not most people or even close. The one large exception to this is the large number of immigrants who were much more likely to be religious and church-going.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    It’s not inaccurate. Soon as you step outside a major city, the majority of Americans go to church weekly. The percentage of Americans who pray daily is comparable to Iran: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-levels-of-prayer-u-s-is-an-outlier-among-wealthy-nations/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/01/with-high-l...
    - slaw 4y ago
      Study from 8 years ago. No longer true.
      - rayiner 4y ago
        You think a seismic shift in those numbers happened in the last year? 81% of Americans still say they believe in god: https://news.gallup.com/poll/393737/belief-god-dips-new-low.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/393737/belief-god-dips-new-low..... It’s down only 6 percentage points since 2013.
        slaw 4y ago
        They may still believe in god, but not pray daily.
- onetimeusename 4y ago
  > And one that is very different from the one across the Atlantic where “in God we trust” is the national motto What is your point about this? The motto has a long tradition almost as old as the country and it's really not uncommon for European countries to reference God in their national or even unofficial national motto. > politicians make sure to fluff up their religious credentials. Like who and how? Most politicians don't do this. Politicians in the US are generally not very religious in my opinion. Ironically, the ones I can think of that are most outspoken about their religion are two Catholics who are at odds with their church leadership over abortion and gay marriage, and Muslims who I somewhat doubt practice Islam. I am struggling to even think of more overtly religious politicians. I just think media reports skew how irreligious politics in the US actually is. I am sure you can find some story about a speech somewhere reference religion or a cross being put up on a state courthouse or something somewhere but I don't think exceptions make the rule and this forgets that even just taking the federal government alone, there are hundreds of politicians who never bring up religion and things are actually much more mundane.
WastingMyTime89 4y ago
No one in France talks about western culture. The main parties which have made Islam a theme are staunchly anti-American. France has had a strong separation between the state and religion for a century. It’s one of the less religious country in the world and a significant part of the population is still strongly against any kind of religion especially the Catholic Church.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Remind me which country is the one with the hijab ban in schools? Is it america or is it France? And you want to tell me you’re not having a religious conflict over there?
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    I have issue making sense of your reply to my comment. I don’t see how it’s against anything I said. As I wrote: "a significant part of the population is still strongly against any kind of religion". All religious signs are banned in schools not only the hijab. France views religion as strictly a private matter which has no place at all in the public sphere. That’s not a religious conflict just widely incompatible with the American view on the subjects.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      You don’t think the French ban on hijab has anything to do with religion? You think it’s just a coincidence and has nothing to do with the fact that Christianity happens not to generally require outwardly visible symbols of membership in a religious community, unlike Islam, Shikhism, Orthodox Judaism, etc.?
      - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
        Remind me which faith in France add to shoot at civil servants to try to prevent them taking an inventory of the content of their cult places so it could be ceased by the state. I guess you don’t know or you wouldn’t write such idiocies. But even then, as a French, I would applaud anything going against religions. The faster we get ride of obscurantism the better the world.