5 ms·

> does religion play a major rile in politics in the rest of the western world? Hasn’t the growth of Islam in Europe been a large and growing political issue f

> does religion play a major rile in politics in the rest of the western world? Hasn’t the growth of Islam in Europe been a large and growing political issue for the past decade? France in particular has had lot of debates about religious clothing at schools, what kind of criticism of religious ideas is and isn’t acceptable, etc. From my POV, it looks like religion is a bigger deal in European than American politics. In America, politics are the religion for many and marrying across political lines now carries more opposition than across religious ones, for the majority of people. Things have changed quite a bit since the 80s.

mtts 4y ago
> Hasn’t the growth of Islam in Europe been a large and growing political issue for the past decade? Probably more like two decades by now :-) The political parties in Europe that pride themselves on anti-Islamism are themselves not religious all. And no one (of any significance) in Western Europe is arguing for a return to Christianity. Some parties advocate “Judeo-Christian values” but the various incarnations of this concept are nebulous at best and mostly completely unrecognizable to Jews and Christians. At the same time, many Western European countries are now majority atheist or at least majority unaffiliated with organized religion, so, no, religion is not at all a bigger deal in European politics at all.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Those political parties in France talk about “western culture” instead of “Christianity,” but western culture is fundamentally an outgrowth of Christianity. Even if you strip out the supernatural parts, a religion provides all sorts of notions about fairness, justice, forgiveness, family life, the rules and order, etc. People in Europe are still socialized into all that, even if they stop going to church. This is apparent if you come from a different religious background. I know people who are nominally atheist but you can tell their family is German Protestant a mile away.
  - mtts 4y ago
    > Even if you strip out the supernatural parts, a religion provides all sorts of notions about fairness, justice, forgiveness, family life, the rules and order, etc. Most people would call that a culture. One were most people do not go to church on Sunday and politicians, even if they’re from a religious background, like Angela Merkel, don’t ever talk about God. And one that is very different from the one across the Atlantic where “in God we trust” is the national motto and politicians make sure to fluff up their religious credentials.
    - rayiner 4y ago
      > Most people would call that a culture. Sure. But in Europe that culture co-evolved with more than a 1,000 years of Christianity being central to society. The cultural inheritance of Christianity survives whether people go to church or not. The same is true for those Muslim immigrants. They are culturally Muslim. It’s those differences in culture, rooted in religion, that are the source of the conflict, not theology in the abstract. > One were most people do not go to church on Sunday and politicians, even if they’re from a religious background, like Angela Merkel, don’t ever talk about God. The German system of offering education in Christianity in public schools would be illegal in America. In Germany abortion is still technically illegal, and is restricted after 12 weeks, whereas in most of America it’s available up to 24 weeks. In Bavaria the government can require Christian crosses to be displayed in all public buildings. In America that would be illegal. So why doesn’t Merkel talk about Christianity? Is it because Christianity has less influence on government and society in Germany? Or is it because Germany secularism carved out a sphere for Christianity in society, and, unlike in America, nobody is trying to eliminate that sphere?
    - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
      This sounds like a very outdated or caricatured view of the US (where I lived for half of 2022 and also 2012-2015). In those four years I didn't hear the phrase "in God we trust" even one time and the vast majority people I met were either athiest, agnostic or identified as Christian but hadn't been to church in years didn't seem to hold many religious beliefs but had some family background or cultural connection. If you look, you can definitely religious people but it's not most people or even close. The one large exception to this is the large number of immigrants who were much more likely to be religious and church-going.
lalopalota 4y ago
> marrying across political lines now carries more opposition than across religious ones, for the majority of people Where can I learn more about this? I find it difficult to believe this is true for "the majority of people".
- AlchemistCamp 4y ago
  You can check out Pew Research's related publications: - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/02/interfaith-marriage/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/02/interfaith-... - https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2016/06/22/3-partisan-environments-views-of-political-conversations-and-disagreements/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2016/06/22/3-partisan-e...
- nwatson 4y ago
  Religion is increasingly a political signifier in the USA now. Many MAGA Trump supporters who claim to be Evangelical don't even go to church on any regular basis. "Secular Evangelicalism" is huge in the USA South. This trend started with William Branham (progenitor of Latter Rain cult, The Message cult, prosperity gospel, healing-campaign revivalism ... leading to the current New Apostolic Reformation) and his mentor Roy E. Davis (Klan leader) in the 1930s. They started a political white supremacist cult with a religious bent. These two spawned a plethora of "heretical" movements still going strong today, a fusion of supremacist, new age ideas from the late 1800s, anti-communist, and evangelical/pentecostal ideas. (Refer to the "Leaving The Message" YouTube channel. These guys, Branham and Davis, spawned the hydra.) Edit: clarity, additional points
- DFHippie 4y ago
  Eh, as an American I would say it checks out. We really hate each other. Much of the get-out-the-vote effort on the right consists of reminding their voters why they hate the other side. This naturally pisses off the left. This leads to much angry rhetoric on the left. This rhetoric is nut-picked and put on blast by the media on the right. Etc. The situation isn't symmetric because the left has a lot of issues they're happy to run on: climate change, electoral reforms, education, health care. The right is mostly focused on their hatred of the left -- anti-wokeism, anti-CRT, anti-gender-whatever. The net effect is a lot of hatred.

mtts 4y ago

> Hasn’t the growth of Islam in Europe been a large and growing political issue for the past decade? Probably more like two decades by now :-) The political parties in Europe that pride themselves on anti-Islamism are themselves not religious all. And no one (of any significance) in Western Europe is arguing for a return to Christianity. Some parties advocate “Judeo-Christian values” but the various incarnations of this concept are nebulous at best and mostly completely unrecognizable to Jews and Christians. At the same time, many Western European countries are now majority atheist or at least majority unaffiliated with organized religion, so, no, religion is not at all a bigger deal in European politics at all.

rayiner 4y ago
Those political parties in France talk about “western culture” instead of “Christianity,” but western culture is fundamentally an outgrowth of Christianity. Even if you strip out the supernatural parts, a religion provides all sorts of notions about fairness, justice, forgiveness, family life, the rules and order, etc. People in Europe are still socialized into all that, even if they stop going to church. This is apparent if you come from a different religious background. I know people who are nominally atheist but you can tell their family is German Protestant a mile away.
- mtts 4y ago
  > Even if you strip out the supernatural parts, a religion provides all sorts of notions about fairness, justice, forgiveness, family life, the rules and order, etc. Most people would call that a culture. One were most people do not go to church on Sunday and politicians, even if they’re from a religious background, like Angela Merkel, don’t ever talk about God. And one that is very different from the one across the Atlantic where “in God we trust” is the national motto and politicians make sure to fluff up their religious credentials.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    > Most people would call that a culture. Sure. But in Europe that culture co-evolved with more than a 1,000 years of Christianity being central to society. The cultural inheritance of Christianity survives whether people go to church or not. The same is true for those Muslim immigrants. They are culturally Muslim. It’s those differences in culture, rooted in religion, that are the source of the conflict, not theology in the abstract. > One were most people do not go to church on Sunday and politicians, even if they’re from a religious background, like Angela Merkel, don’t ever talk about God. The German system of offering education in Christianity in public schools would be illegal in America. In Germany abortion is still technically illegal, and is restricted after 12 weeks, whereas in most of America it’s available up to 24 weeks. In Bavaria the government can require Christian crosses to be displayed in all public buildings. In America that would be illegal. So why doesn’t Merkel talk about Christianity? Is it because Christianity has less influence on government and society in Germany? Or is it because Germany secularism carved out a sphere for Christianity in society, and, unlike in America, nobody is trying to eliminate that sphere?
  - AlchemistCamp 4y ago
    This sounds like a very outdated or caricatured view of the US (where I lived for half of 2022 and also 2012-2015). In those four years I didn't hear the phrase "in God we trust" even one time and the vast majority people I met were either athiest, agnostic or identified as Christian but hadn't been to church in years didn't seem to hold many religious beliefs but had some family background or cultural connection. If you look, you can definitely religious people but it's not most people or even close. The one large exception to this is the large number of immigrants who were much more likely to be religious and church-going.

lalopalota 4y ago

> marrying across political lines now carries more opposition than across religious ones, for the majority of people Where can I learn more about this? I find it difficult to believe this is true for "the majority of people".

AlchemistCamp 4y ago
You can check out Pew Research's related publications: - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/02/interfaith-marriage/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/02/interfaith-... - https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2016/06/22/3-partisan-environments-views-of-political-conversations-and-disagreements/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2016/06/22/3-partisan-e...
nwatson 4y ago
Religion is increasingly a political signifier in the USA now. Many MAGA Trump supporters who claim to be Evangelical don't even go to church on any regular basis. "Secular Evangelicalism" is huge in the USA South. This trend started with William Branham (progenitor of Latter Rain cult, The Message cult, prosperity gospel, healing-campaign revivalism ... leading to the current New Apostolic Reformation) and his mentor Roy E. Davis (Klan leader) in the 1930s. They started a political white supremacist cult with a religious bent. These two spawned a plethora of "heretical" movements still going strong today, a fusion of supremacist, new age ideas from the late 1800s, anti-communist, and evangelical/pentecostal ideas. (Refer to the "Leaving The Message" YouTube channel. These guys, Branham and Davis, spawned the hydra.) Edit: clarity, additional points
DFHippie 4y ago
Eh, as an American I would say it checks out. We really hate each other. Much of the get-out-the-vote effort on the right consists of reminding their voters why they hate the other side. This naturally pisses off the left. This leads to much angry rhetoric on the left. This rhetoric is nut-picked and put on blast by the media on the right. Etc. The situation isn't symmetric because the left has a lot of issues they're happy to run on: climate change, electoral reforms, education, health care. The right is mostly focused on their hatred of the left -- anti-wokeism, anti-CRT, anti-gender-whatever. The net effect is a lot of hatred.