5 ms·

I feel about this the way I feel about "free" Windows when you buy a computer from a mainstream retailer. It's not worth the price, it's not a gift, it's just a

by Y_Y 4y ago

I feel about this the way I feel about "free" Windows when you buy a computer from a mainstream retailer. It's not worth the price, it's not a gift, it's just an adverstisement and a gateway to the walled garden. I have a normal Mathematica license and for the few times it's the right tool for the job I find myself reaching for something else anyway. I can almost always get things done with FOSS (usually within the python ecosystem) and I don't have to think about activations or Mr. Wolfram.

Dalewyn 4y ago
While I understand what you are saying, using Windows as an example is bad because Windows is not a walled garden. If you want examples of a walled garden, look at MacOS/iOS, Android (kind of), and arguably even the Linuxes (question of practicality).
- msla 4y ago
  If Linux is a "Walled garden" the phrase has no meaning.
  - 323 4y ago
    What does it mean then that Windows is a walled garden? That it can only run Windows software? How is then Linux also not a walled garden?
    - anthk 4y ago
      Linux can run floss and Windows software too.
      - criddell 4y ago
        And macOS can (legally) run Linux, Windows, Mac, and some iOS/iPadOS software. No OS beats it in this respect.
      - 323 4y ago
        Windows can also run floss and Linux software too.
    - teknopaul 4y ago
      You don't have to pay anyone to sign a driver you write to use it yourself. With Windows you can write some software, but not all software. You have to pay Microsoft to sign drivers. The code that enforces that is the wall. No such code exists in a Linux. All is possible.
      - deely3 4y ago
        Just to clarify - this is main difference between Windows and Linux, and this is why Windows by definition is walled garden? Actually, I think I'm ok with it. As far as I understand you don't need to sign USB drivers, and for other drivers signing is additional level of security.
    - kwhitefoot 4y ago
      Wine is just a few clicks away in most distros or go to https://www.winehq.org/ https://www.winehq.org/ and follow the instructions there. It can run quite a bit of Windows software. I've just spent a pleasant few minutes playing 3D Pinball for Windows - Space Cadet,
      - mynameisvlad 4y ago
        In that vein, wouldn’t WSL then allow Linux software to run on Windows?
        kwhitefoot 4y ago
        I don't know why you were downvoted because it's a perfectly reasonable question. The answer is not really, or rather the last time I tried it wasn't easy to get X windows running properly so you were stuck with just terminal based programs but that was a couple of years ago. Now I have switched entirely to Linux I'll have to leave it to others to describe the current state of affairs with WSL and X windows
        mynameisvlad 4y ago
        I haven't used it, but in theory it seems to be fully supported, with screenshots in the help article showing several apps running, and instructions (however short) laid out for various apps like Gedit, GIMP, Chrome, even Nautilus: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/tutorials/gui-apps https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/tutorials/gui-... It seems to be as easy as installing a driver and then... installing the apps in the distro. That makes it even easier than Wine IMO. To me, it seemed perfectly reasonable to call it the Windows equivalent to Wine but :shrug:
    - kilgnad 4y ago
      You have a point. Anyone can develop software for windows. It's not walled off at all. There are security prompts in place when you start doing unsafe things but you can pretty much do anything. The only thing walled off is the source code but nobody is referring to that. I think people are associating walled garden with closed source. This is not a consistent association because there is one operating system that is, in actuality, a true walled garden where the term fits: iOS is a walled garden. The characterization of the term here is entirely different from windows or Linux. Thus the parent is also correct about his point. If you use a Linux distro exclusively with a package manager. It is effectively as if you are in a walled garden. It is just like using the app store on macos exclusively.
    - layer8 4y ago
      Windows is slowly getting more walled. For example, it’s not possible anymore to freely define file type associations in the registry. Windows only enables the user to do so via a very limited UI, which for example doesn’t allow custom icons, command lines, or custom groupings or forwarding of associations. Someone reverse-engineered the protection to defeat it [1], but it’s still a pain. Another example is that it’s almost impossible to change the UI look in ways not intended by Microsoft (which are much more limited now than 20 years ago). [1] https://kolbi.cz/blog/2017/10/25/setuserfta-userchoice-hash-defeated-set-file-type-associations-per-user/ https://kolbi.cz/blog/2017/10/25/setuserfta-userchoice-hash-...
      - Dalewyn 4y ago
        To play Devil's Advocate, I can see the reasoning behind that. Malware changing file associations behind the scenes is a fairly common occurence. Hell, even programs you want occasionally change file associations without your permission. So putting protections in place to try and prevent that is ultimately a boon for most users.
- pca006132 4y ago
  Linux is more like a walled garden than Windows? Maybe you have a different definition of walled garden or something...
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    Linux quickly becomes a quagmire of impracticality once you dare to step outside of the distro-provided or -recommended repositories, so much I would argue it's functionally a walled garden at that point. By contrast, on Windows you can install, run, upgrade, and downgrade whatever you want whenever you want however you want without sacrificing practicality.
    - anthk 4y ago
      Go try disabling the telemetry on Windows 10 after each update. On Linux, you can compile stuff from source anywhere. Or even use pkgsrc on top of any distro.
      - mynameisvlad 4y ago
        The comment you replied to talked about regular uses, things like installing using and removing apps. A regular user wouldn’t even understand the things you just said let alone how to do them. Disabling telemetry also seems like a wildly different problem that I’m not even sure regular users would care about.
        nix23 4y ago
        >A regular user wouldn’t even understand the things you just said let alone how to do them. I always giggle when someone says "regular" users use a GNU/Linux-Distro ;)
    - vegabook 4y ago
      Take a look at LXC/LXD containers. lxd init # choose defaults except use "dir" for disk lxc launch ubuntu:22.04 my-ubuntu # or any other distro lxc exec my-ubuntu -- bash Clean, lightweight, full virtual machine every time that's much less heavy than Virtualbox. You can mess around in there as much as you want without creating the quagmire you speak of on your main installation, because it's a full, completely clean VM isolated away. Also lots of distros to choose from. Personally I find Windows to be super unstable once you've installed/uninstalled a bunch of stuff. Obviously, there's also Docker but sometimes you want a full VM to get a bunch of stuff working together.
- CuriousCosmic 4y ago
  Linux distros are not by any means walled gardens. You can always install new software by building it from source or often from just downloading something someone else built (as long as it's statically linked or you have the shared libs). Windows is also not a walled garden but to a lesser degree than Linux. It is far harder to get a "standard" build environment up for windows simply because Microsoft refuses to distribute the UCRT (or VSRedist) build libraries in a form that doesn't require manually digging through installer internals or setting up Visual Studio. It can be done for free & legally but it's a significant pain in the ass. Regardless of how annoying it is, there is no financial/legal barrier to building software for windows and you can trivially install 3rd party software or even execute it without installing. Android I somewhat agree is a walled garden in practice (certain features are limited to gApp/play store apps only and setting up 3rd party play stores or apps is annoying) but by the simple fact that you can build apps for android or install them without any financial or legal barriers, it can't realistically be called a walled garden (maybe a hedge maze might be more accurate). MacOS isn't entirely a walled garden despite getting pretty close (kinda like a worse dev/install experience from windows + *nix). iOS however is 100% a walled garden. Point being that out of every OS you mentioned, exactly 1 of them qualifies and the rest do not (despite having anti-user/anti-competitive practices)
- rg111 4y ago
  I am wondering what amount of head-twisting does it take to reach the conclusion that Windows is not a walled garden and Linux distros are? Ooof. HN never ceases to amaze me.
- elkos 4y ago
  Can tou tell that to Edge? Because it insists to become the default browser every now and then at my work.
brookst 4y ago
Windows is not free on new computers. OEMs pay Microsoft for each copy and pass the cost on to you. It is bundled, not free. My understanding is that Mathematica is truly free on Pi; Raspberry doesn’t pay Wolfram and it does not increase end user price.

by Y_Y 4y ago

Dalewyn 4y ago

While I understand what you are saying, using Windows as an example is bad because Windows is not a walled garden. If you want examples of a walled garden, look at MacOS/iOS, Android (kind of), and arguably even the Linuxes (question of practicality).

msla 4y ago
If Linux is a "Walled garden" the phrase has no meaning.
- 323 4y ago
  What does it mean then that Windows is a walled garden? That it can only run Windows software? How is then Linux also not a walled garden?
  - anthk 4y ago
    Linux can run floss and Windows software too.
    - criddell 4y ago
      And macOS can (legally) run Linux, Windows, Mac, and some iOS/iPadOS software. No OS beats it in this respect.
    - 323 4y ago
      Windows can also run floss and Linux software too.
  - teknopaul 4y ago
    You don't have to pay anyone to sign a driver you write to use it yourself. With Windows you can write some software, but not all software. You have to pay Microsoft to sign drivers. The code that enforces that is the wall. No such code exists in a Linux. All is possible.
    - deely3 4y ago
      Just to clarify - this is main difference between Windows and Linux, and this is why Windows by definition is walled garden? Actually, I think I'm ok with it. As far as I understand you don't need to sign USB drivers, and for other drivers signing is additional level of security.
  - kwhitefoot 4y ago
    Wine is just a few clicks away in most distros or go to https://www.winehq.org/ https://www.winehq.org/ and follow the instructions there. It can run quite a bit of Windows software. I've just spent a pleasant few minutes playing 3D Pinball for Windows - Space Cadet,
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      In that vein, wouldn’t WSL then allow Linux software to run on Windows?
      - kwhitefoot 4y ago
        I don't know why you were downvoted because it's a perfectly reasonable question. The answer is not really, or rather the last time I tried it wasn't easy to get X windows running properly so you were stuck with just terminal based programs but that was a couple of years ago. Now I have switched entirely to Linux I'll have to leave it to others to describe the current state of affairs with WSL and X windows
        mynameisvlad 4y ago
        I haven't used it, but in theory it seems to be fully supported, with screenshots in the help article showing several apps running, and instructions (however short) laid out for various apps like Gedit, GIMP, Chrome, even Nautilus: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/tutorials/gui-apps https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/tutorials/gui-... It seems to be as easy as installing a driver and then... installing the apps in the distro. That makes it even easier than Wine IMO. To me, it seemed perfectly reasonable to call it the Windows equivalent to Wine but :shrug:
  - kilgnad 4y ago
    You have a point. Anyone can develop software for windows. It's not walled off at all. There are security prompts in place when you start doing unsafe things but you can pretty much do anything. The only thing walled off is the source code but nobody is referring to that. I think people are associating walled garden with closed source. This is not a consistent association because there is one operating system that is, in actuality, a true walled garden where the term fits: iOS is a walled garden. The characterization of the term here is entirely different from windows or Linux. Thus the parent is also correct about his point. If you use a Linux distro exclusively with a package manager. It is effectively as if you are in a walled garden. It is just like using the app store on macos exclusively.
  - layer8 4y ago
    Windows is slowly getting more walled. For example, it’s not possible anymore to freely define file type associations in the registry. Windows only enables the user to do so via a very limited UI, which for example doesn’t allow custom icons, command lines, or custom groupings or forwarding of associations. Someone reverse-engineered the protection to defeat it [1], but it’s still a pain. Another example is that it’s almost impossible to change the UI look in ways not intended by Microsoft (which are much more limited now than 20 years ago). [1] https://kolbi.cz/blog/2017/10/25/setuserfta-userchoice-hash-defeated-set-file-type-associations-per-user/ https://kolbi.cz/blog/2017/10/25/setuserfta-userchoice-hash-...
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      To play Devil's Advocate, I can see the reasoning behind that. Malware changing file associations behind the scenes is a fairly common occurence. Hell, even programs you want occasionally change file associations without your permission. So putting protections in place to try and prevent that is ultimately a boon for most users.
pca006132 4y ago
Linux is more like a walled garden than Windows? Maybe you have a different definition of walled garden or something...
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  Linux quickly becomes a quagmire of impracticality once you dare to step outside of the distro-provided or -recommended repositories, so much I would argue it's functionally a walled garden at that point. By contrast, on Windows you can install, run, upgrade, and downgrade whatever you want whenever you want however you want without sacrificing practicality.
  - anthk 4y ago
    Go try disabling the telemetry on Windows 10 after each update. On Linux, you can compile stuff from source anywhere. Or even use pkgsrc on top of any distro.
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      The comment you replied to talked about regular uses, things like installing using and removing apps. A regular user wouldn’t even understand the things you just said let alone how to do them. Disabling telemetry also seems like a wildly different problem that I’m not even sure regular users would care about.
      - nix23 4y ago
        >A regular user wouldn’t even understand the things you just said let alone how to do them. I always giggle when someone says "regular" users use a GNU/Linux-Distro ;)
  - vegabook 4y ago
    Take a look at LXC/LXD containers. lxd init # choose defaults except use "dir" for disk lxc launch ubuntu:22.04 my-ubuntu # or any other distro lxc exec my-ubuntu -- bash Clean, lightweight, full virtual machine every time that's much less heavy than Virtualbox. You can mess around in there as much as you want without creating the quagmire you speak of on your main installation, because it's a full, completely clean VM isolated away. Also lots of distros to choose from. Personally I find Windows to be super unstable once you've installed/uninstalled a bunch of stuff. Obviously, there's also Docker but sometimes you want a full VM to get a bunch of stuff working together.
CuriousCosmic 4y ago
Linux distros are not by any means walled gardens. You can always install new software by building it from source or often from just downloading something someone else built (as long as it's statically linked or you have the shared libs). Windows is also not a walled garden but to a lesser degree than Linux. It is far harder to get a "standard" build environment up for windows simply because Microsoft refuses to distribute the UCRT (or VSRedist) build libraries in a form that doesn't require manually digging through installer internals or setting up Visual Studio. It can be done for free & legally but it's a significant pain in the ass. Regardless of how annoying it is, there is no financial/legal barrier to building software for windows and you can trivially install 3rd party software or even execute it without installing. Android I somewhat agree is a walled garden in practice (certain features are limited to gApp/play store apps only and setting up 3rd party play stores or apps is annoying) but by the simple fact that you can build apps for android or install them without any financial or legal barriers, it can't realistically be called a walled garden (maybe a hedge maze might be more accurate). MacOS isn't entirely a walled garden despite getting pretty close (kinda like a worse dev/install experience from windows + *nix). iOS however is 100% a walled garden. Point being that out of every OS you mentioned, exactly 1 of them qualifies and the rest do not (despite having anti-user/anti-competitive practices)
rg111 4y ago
I am wondering what amount of head-twisting does it take to reach the conclusion that Windows is not a walled garden and Linux distros are? Ooof. HN never ceases to amaze me.
elkos 4y ago
Can tou tell that to Edge? Because it insists to become the default browser every now and then at my work.

brookst 4y ago

Windows is not free on new computers. OEMs pay Microsoft for each copy and pass the cost on to you. It is bundled, not free. My understanding is that Mathematica is truly free on Pi; Raspberry doesn’t pay Wolfram and it does not increase end user price.