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> The separatists are under Russian control. I think this dehumanizes them. They chose to become part of Russia and the fact that they have mostly become part

> The separatists are under Russian control. I think this dehumanizes them. They chose to become part of Russia and the fact that they have mostly become part of Russia doesn't erase that choice. > In the 1991 referendum... A lot has happened since 1991. Don't you agree that a poll from 2021 is more relevant now? > First point, why such stark difference? An obvious explanation would be that only the areas where enough people wanted to leave Ukraine were controlled by the separatists. > Second point, this changes absolutely nothing about my claim that what Russia did and is doing is completely immoral, pure evil. If you mean that it's never moral to support separatists, I disagree completely. > I'm curious why you have this view I'm from the US. We are, first of all, a nation founded by "separatists", who also fought against other separatists to remain a single nation. I think each separatist cause needs to be evaluated on its merits, but in general (when something like slavery isn't involved) I think the people of a smaller region should be free to leave a larger nation if they wish. If I didn't believe that, I'd have to apply for British citizenship. And the US is also a nation that's done exactly what Russia is doing, many times. We nearly started a war because Russian weapons were too close to the US (in Cuba), just as Russia demands that Western weapons stay out of Ukraine. And we've invaded many nations on pretexts weaker than Russia's in this war. If we accepted those actions as precedents, they would justify Russia's actions in this war. Everything I hear seems to be tinged by a bit of an "it's only OK when we do it" attitude, so I feel that this war is about power and imperialism for the US as much as it is for Russia. And perhaps also for Ukraine. Ukraine has even demanded the return of Crimea, where even in 1991, only 54% wanted to be separate from Russia. After all that's happened, do you think Crimea really wants to return to Ukraine? My ideal solution would be a fair and binding vote on separation for all the regions in question, but I know no party would accept that.

mopsi 4y ago
> I think this dehumanizes them. They chose to become part of Russia and the fact that they have mostly become part of Russia doesn't erase that choice. Does not dehumanize at all. Ukraine fell into political turmoil similar to January 6 riots in the US, and Russia used intelligence operatives to instigate further violent riots, quickly invaded parts of Ukraine taking advantage of the confusion, and established a military occupation. The so-called separatists were directly funded and supported by Russia in the earliest days, and then under the full control of the military admin after tanks rolled in. As I've told before, the European Court of Human Rights has confirmed the same when they were investigating whether Russia is responsible for MH17 shootdown, which happened on occupied territories. Since Russia had full control, ECHR found them responsible. Locals have had as much freedom to choose their future as Parisians in 1940.
- leereeves 4y ago
  You've conflated two different issues. The ECHR has ruled (and I think they're right) that Russia is in control of the region. That tells us nothing about whether the people of the region want to be part of Russia. For that, we have to look to polls, like the one I cited, which tell us that the people living in the region do support Russia. Which isn't that surprising, considering that the elected President they supported was driven out of office by a revolution. That kind of thing would make anyone question their democracy. If you must compare it to Jan 6th, it's as if the Jan 6th riots had lasted for weeks and at the end, the President preferred by the rioters took over.
  - mopsi 4y ago
    The so-called separatists don't represent the people no matter how you approach them. In the earliest days, they consisted of local thugs, the kind of people who come out just to destroy something at protests. Then intelligence operatives like Igor Girkin were quickly installed to direct the violence against Ukraine and its institutions in a controlled way to achieve Russian goals, and then regular armed forces took over. At no point did it have anything to do with people and their will. Nor would I put much value on polls conducted in conditions where people can get murdered for publicly supporting some of the answers. I wonder what Parisians in 1940 would've answered if they got a phone call asking if they wanted to be a part of Germany - while people were disappearing. > Which isn't that surprising, considering that the elected President they supported was driven out of office by a revolution. That kind of thing would make anyone question their democracy. If you must compare it to Jan 6th, it's as if the Jan 6th riots had lasted for weeks and at the end, the President preferred by the rioters took over. Yanukovych was removed from the office by the parliament. It's as if Congress had voted Trump out of the office after January 6th riots, Trump fled abroad and some unhappy Trumpers stormed further goverment buildings, and then Mexican army rolled in to support "separatists" and occupied Arizona and Texas, and then Mexican intelligence operatives cosplaying as independent freedom fighters asked Mexico to annex Arizona and Texas into Mexico.
    - leereeves 4y ago
RivieraKid 4y ago
> I think this dehumanizes them. No. I said they were under Russian control. Not that they're not human. The invading army is under Putin's control, that doesn't imply they're not human (although they regularly commit inhuman acts). > A lot has happened since 1991. Don't you agree that a poll from 2021 is more relevant now? The poll is heavily skewed by Russian propaganda in areas under their control. > An obvious explanation would be that only the areas where enough people wanted to leave Ukraine were controlled by the separatists. First, area of control is primarily determined by military, not civilians. Second, why would there be such a stark difference in opinion within Donbas? Doesn't make any sense. > If you mean that it's never moral to support separatists, I disagree completely. I don't mean that, it depends on the specific situation. But the separatists are just a distraction, it's not what this war is about. Russia invaded the area which was against joining Russia, simply because Putin wanted to subdue Ukraine. He couldn't care less about the separatists, they're just a tool. In fact, he brutally crushes actual organic separatist movements (Chechnya). > so I feel that this war is about power and imperialism for the US as much as it is for Russia You feel wrong then. What Russia is doing is bordering genocide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukr...). The US is doing everything to help them. If Ukraine succeeds and becomes a prosperous liberal democracy, it would make the alliance of liberal democracies stronger and the US would benefit from that. That doesn't change that it's mostly right to help Ukraine. Russia is effectively a dictatorship run by a psychopath who kills his opponents and uses mass torture to achieve his goals. The US is a democracy whose current leadership has a normal level of empathy. > only 54% wanted to be separate from Russia That's a majority... In any case, the annexation by Russia was wrong and should be reversed. After that, there may be talks about independence and a proper referendum.
RivieraKid 4y ago
> My ideal solution would be a fair and binding vote on separation for all the regions in question, but I know no party would accept that. What are the regions in question? Should the about 25k of civilians murdered by Russia in Mariupol be automatically counted as votes against joining Russia?
SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
> A lot has happened since 1991. Don't you agree that a poll from 2021 is more relevant now? What 2021 poll is that? I am aware of the ones in 2014 and the one in 2022, both of which could be described as meaningless Russian shams, and totally irrelevant . 2014 sham: https://www.thebulwark.com/what-really-happened-in-ukraine-in-2014-and-since-then/ https://www.thebulwark.com/what-really-happened-in-ukraine-i... 2022 sham: https://www.voanews.com/a/voting-ending-in-sham-annexation-polls-in-four-ukrainian-regions-/6764836.html https://www.voanews.com/a/voting-ending-in-sham-annexation-p...
- leereeves 4y ago
  The poll I linked just a couple posts up, by the Washington Post.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
    This one? https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/12/new-survey-ukraine-russia-conflict-finds-deeply-divided-views-contested-donbas-region/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/12/new-surve... Paywalled, described as a "survey" in the headline, so not actually a poll. Why pick that specific one?
    - leereeves 4y ago
      Disable JS to bypass the paywall. I picked this one because it's one of the few I've seen that seems the least bit trustworthy. If you know of a better one, I'd be happy to read it too.

mopsi 4y ago

> I think this dehumanizes them. They chose to become part of Russia and the fact that they have mostly become part of Russia doesn't erase that choice. Does not dehumanize at all. Ukraine fell into political turmoil similar to January 6 riots in the US, and Russia used intelligence operatives to instigate further violent riots, quickly invaded parts of Ukraine taking advantage of the confusion, and established a military occupation. The so-called separatists were directly funded and supported by Russia in the earliest days, and then under the full control of the military admin after tanks rolled in. As I've told before, the European Court of Human Rights has confirmed the same when they were investigating whether Russia is responsible for MH17 shootdown, which happened on occupied territories. Since Russia had full control, ECHR found them responsible. Locals have had as much freedom to choose their future as Parisians in 1940.

leereeves 4y ago
You've conflated two different issues. The ECHR has ruled (and I think they're right) that Russia is in control of the region. That tells us nothing about whether the people of the region want to be part of Russia. For that, we have to look to polls, like the one I cited, which tell us that the people living in the region do support Russia. Which isn't that surprising, considering that the elected President they supported was driven out of office by a revolution. That kind of thing would make anyone question their democracy. If you must compare it to Jan 6th, it's as if the Jan 6th riots had lasted for weeks and at the end, the President preferred by the rioters took over.
- mopsi 4y ago
  The so-called separatists don't represent the people no matter how you approach them. In the earliest days, they consisted of local thugs, the kind of people who come out just to destroy something at protests. Then intelligence operatives like Igor Girkin were quickly installed to direct the violence against Ukraine and its institutions in a controlled way to achieve Russian goals, and then regular armed forces took over. At no point did it have anything to do with people and their will. Nor would I put much value on polls conducted in conditions where people can get murdered for publicly supporting some of the answers. I wonder what Parisians in 1940 would've answered if they got a phone call asking if they wanted to be a part of Germany - while people were disappearing. > Which isn't that surprising, considering that the elected President they supported was driven out of office by a revolution. That kind of thing would make anyone question their democracy. If you must compare it to Jan 6th, it's as if the Jan 6th riots had lasted for weeks and at the end, the President preferred by the rioters took over. Yanukovych was removed from the office by the parliament. It's as if Congress had voted Trump out of the office after January 6th riots, Trump fled abroad and some unhappy Trumpers stormed further goverment buildings, and then Mexican army rolled in to support "separatists" and occupied Arizona and Texas, and then Mexican intelligence operatives cosplaying as independent freedom fighters asked Mexico to annex Arizona and Texas into Mexico.
  - leereeves 4y ago

RivieraKid 4y ago

> I think this dehumanizes them. No. I said they were under Russian control. Not that they're not human. The invading army is under Putin's control, that doesn't imply they're not human (although they regularly commit inhuman acts). > A lot has happened since 1991. Don't you agree that a poll from 2021 is more relevant now? The poll is heavily skewed by Russian propaganda in areas under their control. > An obvious explanation would be that only the areas where enough people wanted to leave Ukraine were controlled by the separatists. First, area of control is primarily determined by military, not civilians. Second, why would there be such a stark difference in opinion within Donbas? Doesn't make any sense. > If you mean that it's never moral to support separatists, I disagree completely. I don't mean that, it depends on the specific situation. But the separatists are just a distraction, it's not what this war is about. Russia invaded the area which was against joining Russia, simply because Putin wanted to subdue Ukraine. He couldn't care less about the separatists, they're just a tool. In fact, he brutally crushes actual organic separatist movements (Chechnya). > so I feel that this war is about power and imperialism for the US as much as it is for Russia You feel wrong then. What Russia is doing is bordering genocide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukr...). The US is doing everything to help them. If Ukraine succeeds and becomes a prosperous liberal democracy, it would make the alliance of liberal democracies stronger and the US would benefit from that. That doesn't change that it's mostly right to help Ukraine. Russia is effectively a dictatorship run by a psychopath who kills his opponents and uses mass torture to achieve his goals. The US is a democracy whose current leadership has a normal level of empathy. > only 54% wanted to be separate from Russia That's a majority... In any case, the annexation by Russia was wrong and should be reversed. After that, there may be talks about independence and a proper referendum.

RivieraKid 4y ago

> My ideal solution would be a fair and binding vote on separation for all the regions in question, but I know no party would accept that. What are the regions in question? Should the about 25k of civilians murdered by Russia in Mariupol be automatically counted as votes against joining Russia?

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago

> A lot has happened since 1991. Don't you agree that a poll from 2021 is more relevant now? What 2021 poll is that? I am aware of the ones in 2014 and the one in 2022, both of which could be described as meaningless Russian shams, and totally irrelevant . 2014 sham: https://www.thebulwark.com/what-really-happened-in-ukraine-in-2014-and-since-then/ https://www.thebulwark.com/what-really-happened-in-ukraine-i... 2022 sham: https://www.voanews.com/a/voting-ending-in-sham-annexation-polls-in-four-ukrainian-regions-/6764836.html https://www.voanews.com/a/voting-ending-in-sham-annexation-p...

leereeves 4y ago
The poll I linked just a couple posts up, by the Washington Post.
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  This one? https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/12/new-survey-ukraine-russia-conflict-finds-deeply-divided-views-contested-donbas-region/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/12/new-surve... Paywalled, described as a "survey" in the headline, so not actually a poll. Why pick that specific one?
  - leereeves 4y ago
    Disable JS to bypass the paywall. I picked this one because it's one of the few I've seen that seems the least bit trustworthy. If you know of a better one, I'd be happy to read it too.