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There exist general purposes OSes that don't just fall apart randomly, you know. For instance if I have a problem with my Kodi box, I just reboot and choose the

There exist general purposes OSes that don't just fall apart randomly, you know. For instance if I have a problem with my Kodi box, I just reboot and choose the previous generation in the NixOS boot menu. Judging by the threads on those proprietary embedded devices, I think my setup passes the "just works when you want it to" test even better than those appliance things, which market an illusion of stability but are doing the same mutable update dance behind the scenes (with the added complication of corporate whims).

acdha 4y ago
> There exist general purposes OSes that don't just fall apart randomly, you know. For instance if I have a problem with my Kodi box, I just reboot and choose the previous generation in the NixOS boot menu. As someone who started using desktop Linux and supported it professionally before the turn of the century, yes, I’m aware and you’ll note that I never claimed otherwise. The reason I mentioned general purpose operating systems is that they’re not optimized for non-keyboard/mouse UI and you’re more likely to get in a situation which requires more work to sort out via the CLI. The other concern I raised was drivers. Support for hardware video decoding, colorspaces & depth, high-quality sound, etc. is certainly technically possible but also something which not-uncommonly ends with angry rants. If you are passionate about open source and eager to take on that responsibility, great, but it’s not a popular choice.
- mindslight 4y ago
  The focus of those points feels completely irrelevant to the reality of my using a general PC to drive my TV. They seem to simultaneously assume the use of a generic point and click operating environment, while rejecting the additional functionality that would necessitate doing so. My Kodi box boots straight into Kodi. I have a mini wireless keyboard on it (Rii X8?), but the alphanumeric functionality isn't particularly used and it could just as easily be a video game controller or even an IR remote. There is no "situation which requires more work to sort out via the CLI", beyond when I deliberately choose to make changes to the system. If I ever did want to pop out of Kodi and run a general desktop + browser - say for sports streams - then the additional input hassle would be due to doing something I couldn't do with an appliance anyway. You can't really characterize this as a drawback. And sure if some driver functionality doesn't exist, then obviously you can't use it - you set your expectations to what is available and how much you want to tinker. And the real answer to "angry rants" is to use an operating system with reliable change control, so that if you start tinkering with something, it cannot end up in a broken state when you want to use it to relax.
  - acdha 4y ago
    Look, I’m not saying you can’t use a PC for a TV if you want. I was specifically responding to the assertion that it was both cost-competitive and better performing when neither is true. It certainly allows you to do different things but it’s unclear how many people care about those more than the extra cash.
    - tacker2000 4y ago
      How is it not more cost effective and better performing AND nore flexible than an Nvidia shield or similar? Im not talking about Chromecasts here.
      - mindslight 4y ago
        IMO there's this weird tendency for technologists to create a model of "normies" with no bespoke interests or self-actualization, and then argue that they're following fully-fleshed-out "normie" incentives rather than the actuality of advertising and product placement. Also I find it a bit disingenuous when people argue for the "less expensive" options that put you at the mercy of streaming companies. My amd64+Kodi+zfs+VPN setup certainly isn't the cheapest, but neither is a corporate puck with several monthly fees for streaming services. If one wanted to be entertained for the least money possible, I suspect that would just consist of using your current laptop/computer running a general purpose OS to play dodgy streaming sites. But most people seemingly want something more than that (which ties back in to my first paragraph).
        oarsinsync 4y ago
        As a technologist who’s run a fully fledged media PC since the days of Xbox Media Centre (before XBMC or Kodi or even Plex I think) with both Windows and Linux flavours, along with a USB IR remote control and wireless keyboard options… I simply got fed up of things randomly not working every year or two when a major upgrade was required, and the amount of effort that typically became required at the exact point that I was exhausted and just wanted to relax. So I gave in, switched to Plex, paid for a Plexpass lifetime account, and bought embedded devices that could stream content off my server. I have way less flexibility now that I’m on an AppleTV 4K. I also continue to get occasional headaches (e.g. recently the remote control randomly stops being able to control the volume), but the size of the headache is limited to pulling out a different remote control / turning all the things off and on again. Mental effort not required. I have a laptop that goes into the 4x2 HDMI splitter, and I occasionally whip that out if there’s a real desperate need. But it’s the absolute last resort. It’s just easier to use the ATV. It’s not that I lack the ability to produce a better PC based solution today, it’s that I lack the interest, and the $200 ATV is good enough that I’d rather throw money at the problem than time.

acdha 4y ago

> There exist general purposes OSes that don't just fall apart randomly, you know. For instance if I have a problem with my Kodi box, I just reboot and choose the previous generation in the NixOS boot menu. As someone who started using desktop Linux and supported it professionally before the turn of the century, yes, I’m aware and you’ll note that I never claimed otherwise. The reason I mentioned general purpose operating systems is that they’re not optimized for non-keyboard/mouse UI and you’re more likely to get in a situation which requires more work to sort out via the CLI. The other concern I raised was drivers. Support for hardware video decoding, colorspaces & depth, high-quality sound, etc. is certainly technically possible but also something which not-uncommonly ends with angry rants. If you are passionate about open source and eager to take on that responsibility, great, but it’s not a popular choice.

mindslight 4y ago
The focus of those points feels completely irrelevant to the reality of my using a general PC to drive my TV. They seem to simultaneously assume the use of a generic point and click operating environment, while rejecting the additional functionality that would necessitate doing so. My Kodi box boots straight into Kodi. I have a mini wireless keyboard on it (Rii X8?), but the alphanumeric functionality isn't particularly used and it could just as easily be a video game controller or even an IR remote. There is no "situation which requires more work to sort out via the CLI", beyond when I deliberately choose to make changes to the system. If I ever did want to pop out of Kodi and run a general desktop + browser - say for sports streams - then the additional input hassle would be due to doing something I couldn't do with an appliance anyway. You can't really characterize this as a drawback. And sure if some driver functionality doesn't exist, then obviously you can't use it - you set your expectations to what is available and how much you want to tinker. And the real answer to "angry rants" is to use an operating system with reliable change control, so that if you start tinkering with something, it cannot end up in a broken state when you want to use it to relax.
- acdha 4y ago
  Look, I’m not saying you can’t use a PC for a TV if you want. I was specifically responding to the assertion that it was both cost-competitive and better performing when neither is true. It certainly allows you to do different things but it’s unclear how many people care about those more than the extra cash.
  - tacker2000 4y ago
    How is it not more cost effective and better performing AND nore flexible than an Nvidia shield or similar? Im not talking about Chromecasts here.
    - mindslight 4y ago
      IMO there's this weird tendency for technologists to create a model of "normies" with no bespoke interests or self-actualization, and then argue that they're following fully-fleshed-out "normie" incentives rather than the actuality of advertising and product placement. Also I find it a bit disingenuous when people argue for the "less expensive" options that put you at the mercy of streaming companies. My amd64+Kodi+zfs+VPN setup certainly isn't the cheapest, but neither is a corporate puck with several monthly fees for streaming services. If one wanted to be entertained for the least money possible, I suspect that would just consist of using your current laptop/computer running a general purpose OS to play dodgy streaming sites. But most people seemingly want something more than that (which ties back in to my first paragraph).
      - oarsinsync 4y ago
        As a technologist who’s run a fully fledged media PC since the days of Xbox Media Centre (before XBMC or Kodi or even Plex I think) with both Windows and Linux flavours, along with a USB IR remote control and wireless keyboard options… I simply got fed up of things randomly not working every year or two when a major upgrade was required, and the amount of effort that typically became required at the exact point that I was exhausted and just wanted to relax. So I gave in, switched to Plex, paid for a Plexpass lifetime account, and bought embedded devices that could stream content off my server. I have way less flexibility now that I’m on an AppleTV 4K. I also continue to get occasional headaches (e.g. recently the remote control randomly stops being able to control the volume), but the size of the headache is limited to pulling out a different remote control / turning all the things off and on again. Mental effort not required. I have a laptop that goes into the 4x2 HDMI splitter, and I occasionally whip that out if there’s a real desperate need. But it’s the absolute last resort. It’s just easier to use the ATV. It’s not that I lack the ability to produce a better PC based solution today, it’s that I lack the interest, and the $200 ATV is good enough that I’d rather throw money at the problem than time.