7 ms·

The positive (and there's plenty of criticism; search and read) point being made about iphone is that it has a longer support duration. This seems highly comple

The positive (and there's plenty of criticism; search and read) point being made about iphone is that it has a longer support duration. This seems highly complementary to repairability -- both seem important to maximize useful life -- and thus an entirely fair point, no? I'm recently on my 4th Android smartphone in 12 years (Galaxy S, Moto G, Pixel 2, Pixel 7) and would be still on the Pixel 2 if not for lack of updates, as it's still completely fine hardware wise. I guess if I had been an Apple fanboi, I would've had at least 1 fewer phones in that time period. Really made me think this last time. Hoping my eventual 5th smartphone will have very long support and very good repariability.

gambiting 4y ago
On the other hand I can still get modern versions of android with all the security updates for some ancient android phones, you just have to do a tiny bit of tinkering with unlocking the bootloader first. That's something you can't do with any iPhone.
rustymonday 4y ago
I had an iPhone 4 many years ago, and Apple nerfed it with software updates when the iPhone 6 came out. These updates significantly slowed down the phone, pretty much forcing me to get a new one after only two years. So I bought an Android and never looked back.
- whitemary 4y ago
  Apple actually lost a lawsuit over this, but of course it didn't matter because the capitalist government theatre is controlled by the ruling class protecting their own, so Apple still came out on top.
  - qwytw 4y ago
    IIRC due to the degrading/faulty(?) batteries they had to choose between random shutdowns and slowing down the phone. I'm not sure I agree with the way they handled this but I don't think they did that because of "corporate greed".
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      I wouldn't be so generous. Slowing down the phone without any notification is a major problem. Had they added a notification this was happening, there would be no problems at all. Of course, adding such a notification would've prompted many users to seek out battery replacements (and a lot of non-Apple-authorized repair shops would've been happy to meet this demand) and give a new life to their devices, where as silently slowing down their device would prompt those users to eventually upgrade once they get tired of it.
      - goosedragons 4y ago
        Yeah, they didn't tell Apple Geniuses either IIRC so when users came into the store complaining about a slow phone they weren't recommending a $99 battery replacement but a $699 iPhone 7.
  - arcanemachiner 4y ago
    The iPhone 4 slowdown came several years before "batterygate".
    - naijaboiler 4y ago
      i remember my initial ipad2. Yeah new ipads came out, updated, and the old one became too slow to use after the updates. I hated apple products for a long time after that. that was 2013
- vanilla_nut 4y ago
  Wouldn't that be 4 years? I also had an iPhone 4 ruined by the last iOS updates, but because of the S years it was: 4->4S->5->5S->6, so 4 years before battery life and performance went bad.
bmitc 4y ago
> The positive point being made about iphone is that it has a longer support duration. How so? Apple iPhones have one year warranties, are notoriously difficult to repair, and Apple charges an arm and a leg to "repair" them (usually by basically forcing you to do a trade-in and buy a new phone). Apple products will also quickly degrade over iOS upgrades. For example, my iPad Air 2 can barely browse the web with no other apps open.
- nordsieck 4y ago
  > How so? Apple iPhones have one year warranties, are notoriously difficult to repair ... I think your parent was talking about OS support.
- mlinksva 4y ago
  How so? Apologies for not being specific, I was referring to support for security updates.
nordsieck 4y ago
> I'm recently on my 4th Android smartphone in 12 years (Galaxy S, Moto G, Pixel 2, Pixel 7) and would be still on the Pixel 2 if not for lack of updates, as it's still completely fine hardware wise. I guess if I had been an Apple fanboi, I would've had at least 1 fewer phones in that time period. Really made me think this last time. In regards to longterm OS support, iPhones have been getting better and better[1]. 6-7 years is pretty darn good for the last batch to fall out of support (6+, 7, and SE). It'll be interesting to see when the next batch (8 and X) of iPhones falls off the cliff. --- 1. https://www.statista.com/chart/5824/ios-iphone-compatibility/ https://www.statista.com/chart/5824/ios-iphone-compatibility...
leoedin 4y ago
I think I've had 3 phones in the time my wife has had 1 iPhone 7. Every time I buy a new phone I'm like "but Android is cheaper", but I'm fairly sure the lifetime cost of "phone" is in her favour at this point. I think my next phone will be an iPhone.
- dmix 4y ago
  Don't forget AppleCare+ if you do. Not worrying about broken screens ($200/each replacement without vs $30 service fee, with $100 one time AppleCare fee for 2yrs) and getting replacement phones on the spot for other damage is really a huge anxiety relief and comes with more savings than the initial cost. That what helps turn a "phone a year" into 3yrs. Does Google offer something equivalent to AppleCare for Pixel phones? I guess there's think like Best Buy extended warranties but I've never had to use one for a phone. I'm curious how it compares.
  - 1986 4y ago
    They do, with uBreakIFix providing fulfillment: https://store.google.com/us/magazine/preferred_care?hl=en-US https://store.google.com/us/magazine/preferred_care?hl=en-US
    - dmix 4y ago
      Nice looks like it's the exact same service fees for broken sceens and accidental damage. They copied it wholesale to be competitive. Which is a good idea.
      - geraldwhen 4y ago
        AppleCare will hand you a new phone if you break a new, flagship model before they have spare parts. I suspect “UbreakIfix” will not do this.
  - ptoo 4y ago
    Re the AppleCare+ point. If you are unlikely to break a screen more frequently than every 2 years on average, it's more economical to just not get the service. This is ignoring other benefits the AppleCare+ may provide.
logifail 4y ago
> The positive (and there's plenty of criticism; search and read) point being made about iphone is that it has a longer support duration Yup, and the OTA updates with Tesla are also better than you'd get on a car that's 1/10th of the price. Isn't it just a little bit over-entitled to bring up any iPhone in a discussion about budget phones? Newsflash: the vast majority of the planet can't afford to drop $1000+ on a mobile device.
- mlinksva 4y ago
  Newsflash (just looked it up), an iphone se is $429, a used one is cheaper, and factoring in support duration, may be cheaper yet. A friend who would've been among the last people I'd expect to use an iphone blogged this https://announce.asheesh.org/2022/09/i-switched-to-iphone-for-cost-reasons-i-can-help-you-switch-too/ https://announce.asheesh.org/2022/09/i-switched-to-iphone-fo... I'm really embarrased by this (I've been a borderline Apple hater basically my whole life) but also acknowledge reality.
  - logifail 4y ago
    > a used one is cheaper, and factoring in support duration, may be cheaper yet Q: For all those hundreds of millions of people who have paid less than $150 for their phone, how many of them even gave a second thought to the support duration when they decided what to purchase?
    - mlinksva 4y ago
      I'd guess approximately the same number as those who have given a second thought to repairability, i.e., negligible. I'm all for increasing demand for both at the margins, including as part of savvier consumers' financial calculus.
lallysingh 4y ago
Does that compete much against a $150-ish phone with 3 years of software support and super cheap, user replacable parts? I think it's making excuses that the iPhone isn't just a giant burning money pit for customers. Why are folks in a completely different market segment comparing the two?
- nhchris 4y ago
  They're comparing them because software support shouldn't be a problem, regardless of market segment. You can run fully up to date linux on 15 year old computers, but in moving to phones, they destroyed what we took for granted. This is a manufactured problem, and it's no coincidence that it lines the pockets of smartphone makers.
  - lallysingh 4y ago
    Support costs money, and it's part of the price. This moralizing is ridiculous.
    - nhchris 4y ago
      That's my point - it doesn't cost money on PC. I don't need "support" from my motherboard vendor to install the latest linux.
      - lallysingh 4y ago
        Yeah. Part of that is radio support (open source phone projects have had this problem) and packaging - you still need a separate packaged image per phone model. Openmoko had the support problem (iirc) pretty early on. Until those ecosystem issues are fixed, dumping on a $150 phone for concessions that a $800-1000 phone doesn't have to make us pretty ridiculous.
        nhchris 4y ago
        > Until those ecosystem issues are fixed Again, that is my point. No company has any incentive, or has made any moves to, fix the ecosystem. They're happy how there are no standards or documented APIs, how everything is a closed binary blob that changes from one insignificant version to the next. They don't demand any kind of support or openness from hardware suppliers, they don't form any standards or demand adherence to them, despite their massive market power (if Samsung wanted open or standards-compliant hardware, they'd get it), because they directly financially benefit from the broken status quo they created. > concessions that a $800-1000 phone doesn't have to make You can spend 2x that on an Android phone, and the software situation won't be any better. This is deliberate.
MrStonedOne 4y ago
[dead]
gman83 4y ago
FYI you can get LineageOS 20 (Android 13) for your Pixel 2 with the latest updates: https://www.xda-developers.com/lineageos-20-google-pixel-2-adt3-bq-aquaris-x-nubia-android-13-custom-rom/ https://www.xda-developers.com/lineageos-20-google-pixel-2-a...
- pedrocr 4y ago
  Last time I used LineageOS while you got the Android updates on most devices the underlying kernel and drivers were stuck at whatever the manufacturer originally shipped, and that included a bunch of security problems on most phones. Android security and updates is still a mess after all these years. For a while Android One seemed to help and I bought all my phones off that list, but even that's now gone. At this point anything that's not a Pixel within the (very short) support window is probably a big risk. Google really screwed this up.
  - cookiengineer 4y ago
    This is all fixed now. Android 11 based ROMs introduced GSI (generic system images) which allow over the air updates and they even work with LineageOS. Needs a newer underlying linux kernel though, so all the outdated 2.x kernel ports won't be compatible. But I agree with you in your general point. Android OEM ROMs are a joke when it comes to support and they usually are out of date within the first year due to lack of maintenance on the vendor side. I wish there was a more generic platform approach to this where drivers could be just packages instead of this whole statically built images mess that is also unusable for most endusers.
  - dominojab 4y ago
    [dead]
- mlinksva 4y ago
  That's defnitely a big benefit. I used LineageOS (whatever it was called then) to extend the life of my Galaxy S, but at that time not having a working phone for awhile was a lot less disruptive to life and work, so I didn't attempt this time. But once I'm 100% migrated to my new Pixel 7, I'll certainly put an alternative ROM on the Pixel 2 to extend its non-phone life!
hammock 4y ago
> The point being made about iphone is that it has a longer support duration. This seems highly complementary to repairability Seems like you might call that “software repairability”
- mlinksva 4y ago
  No, I'd just call it software support duration, or more narrowly software security update duration. "Software repairability" basically means FOSS (though I don't want to underestimate what creative people will do without source or permission).
cjsplat 4y ago
To be clear, the Pixel 2 is unsecurable at reasonable performance against Spectre style attacks. Might not matter to some.
tomrod 4y ago
> This seems highly complementary to repairability -- both seem important to maximize useful life -- and thus an entirely fair point, no? Repairability is more that once you buy it, you actually own it. Apple does not support this model. Real repairability is when you can hack all components of hardware and software in your domain (which precludes hacking against cell towers, ISP telecom equipment, etc.).
- TazeTSchnitzel 4y ago
  Nor do most Android vendors.
  - tomrod 4y ago
    Correct, though that isn't concomitant to the point under discussion.

gambiting 4y ago

On the other hand I can still get modern versions of android with all the security updates for some ancient android phones, you just have to do a tiny bit of tinkering with unlocking the bootloader first. That's something you can't do with any iPhone.

rustymonday 4y ago

I had an iPhone 4 many years ago, and Apple nerfed it with software updates when the iPhone 6 came out. These updates significantly slowed down the phone, pretty much forcing me to get a new one after only two years. So I bought an Android and never looked back.

whitemary 4y ago
Apple actually lost a lawsuit over this, but of course it didn't matter because the capitalist government theatre is controlled by the ruling class protecting their own, so Apple still came out on top.
- qwytw 4y ago
  IIRC due to the degrading/faulty(?) batteries they had to choose between random shutdowns and slowing down the phone. I'm not sure I agree with the way they handled this but I don't think they did that because of "corporate greed".
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    I wouldn't be so generous. Slowing down the phone without any notification is a major problem. Had they added a notification this was happening, there would be no problems at all. Of course, adding such a notification would've prompted many users to seek out battery replacements (and a lot of non-Apple-authorized repair shops would've been happy to meet this demand) and give a new life to their devices, where as silently slowing down their device would prompt those users to eventually upgrade once they get tired of it.
    - goosedragons 4y ago
      Yeah, they didn't tell Apple Geniuses either IIRC so when users came into the store complaining about a slow phone they weren't recommending a $99 battery replacement but a $699 iPhone 7.
- arcanemachiner 4y ago
  The iPhone 4 slowdown came several years before "batterygate".
  - naijaboiler 4y ago
    i remember my initial ipad2. Yeah new ipads came out, updated, and the old one became too slow to use after the updates. I hated apple products for a long time after that. that was 2013
vanilla_nut 4y ago
Wouldn't that be 4 years? I also had an iPhone 4 ruined by the last iOS updates, but because of the S years it was: 4->4S->5->5S->6, so 4 years before battery life and performance went bad.

bmitc 4y ago

> The positive point being made about iphone is that it has a longer support duration. How so? Apple iPhones have one year warranties, are notoriously difficult to repair, and Apple charges an arm and a leg to "repair" them (usually by basically forcing you to do a trade-in and buy a new phone). Apple products will also quickly degrade over iOS upgrades. For example, my iPad Air 2 can barely browse the web with no other apps open.

nordsieck 4y ago
> How so? Apple iPhones have one year warranties, are notoriously difficult to repair ... I think your parent was talking about OS support.
mlinksva 4y ago
How so? Apologies for not being specific, I was referring to support for security updates.

nordsieck 4y ago

> I'm recently on my 4th Android smartphone in 12 years (Galaxy S, Moto G, Pixel 2, Pixel 7) and would be still on the Pixel 2 if not for lack of updates, as it's still completely fine hardware wise. I guess if I had been an Apple fanboi, I would've had at least 1 fewer phones in that time period. Really made me think this last time. In regards to longterm OS support, iPhones have been getting better and better[1]. 6-7 years is pretty darn good for the last batch to fall out of support (6+, 7, and SE). It'll be interesting to see when the next batch (8 and X) of iPhones falls off the cliff. --- 1. https://www.statista.com/chart/5824/ios-iphone-compatibility/ https://www.statista.com/chart/5824/ios-iphone-compatibility...

leoedin 4y ago

I think I've had 3 phones in the time my wife has had 1 iPhone 7. Every time I buy a new phone I'm like "but Android is cheaper", but I'm fairly sure the lifetime cost of "phone" is in her favour at this point. I think my next phone will be an iPhone.

dmix 4y ago
Don't forget AppleCare+ if you do. Not worrying about broken screens ($200/each replacement without vs $30 service fee, with $100 one time AppleCare fee for 2yrs) and getting replacement phones on the spot for other damage is really a huge anxiety relief and comes with more savings than the initial cost. That what helps turn a "phone a year" into 3yrs. Does Google offer something equivalent to AppleCare for Pixel phones? I guess there's think like Best Buy extended warranties but I've never had to use one for a phone. I'm curious how it compares.
- 1986 4y ago
  They do, with uBreakIFix providing fulfillment: https://store.google.com/us/magazine/preferred_care?hl=en-US https://store.google.com/us/magazine/preferred_care?hl=en-US
  - dmix 4y ago
    Nice looks like it's the exact same service fees for broken sceens and accidental damage. They copied it wholesale to be competitive. Which is a good idea.
    - geraldwhen 4y ago
      AppleCare will hand you a new phone if you break a new, flagship model before they have spare parts. I suspect “UbreakIfix” will not do this.
- ptoo 4y ago
  Re the AppleCare+ point. If you are unlikely to break a screen more frequently than every 2 years on average, it's more economical to just not get the service. This is ignoring other benefits the AppleCare+ may provide.

logifail 4y ago

> The positive (and there's plenty of criticism; search and read) point being made about iphone is that it has a longer support duration Yup, and the OTA updates with Tesla are also better than you'd get on a car that's 1/10th of the price. Isn't it just a little bit over-entitled to bring up any iPhone in a discussion about budget phones? Newsflash: the vast majority of the planet can't afford to drop $1000+ on a mobile device.

mlinksva 4y ago
Newsflash (just looked it up), an iphone se is $429, a used one is cheaper, and factoring in support duration, may be cheaper yet. A friend who would've been among the last people I'd expect to use an iphone blogged this https://announce.asheesh.org/2022/09/i-switched-to-iphone-for-cost-reasons-i-can-help-you-switch-too/ https://announce.asheesh.org/2022/09/i-switched-to-iphone-fo... I'm really embarrased by this (I've been a borderline Apple hater basically my whole life) but also acknowledge reality.
- logifail 4y ago
  > a used one is cheaper, and factoring in support duration, may be cheaper yet Q: For all those hundreds of millions of people who have paid less than $150 for their phone, how many of them even gave a second thought to the support duration when they decided what to purchase?
  - mlinksva 4y ago
    I'd guess approximately the same number as those who have given a second thought to repairability, i.e., negligible. I'm all for increasing demand for both at the margins, including as part of savvier consumers' financial calculus.

lallysingh 4y ago

Does that compete much against a $150-ish phone with 3 years of software support and super cheap, user replacable parts? I think it's making excuses that the iPhone isn't just a giant burning money pit for customers. Why are folks in a completely different market segment comparing the two?

nhchris 4y ago
They're comparing them because software support shouldn't be a problem, regardless of market segment. You can run fully up to date linux on 15 year old computers, but in moving to phones, they destroyed what we took for granted. This is a manufactured problem, and it's no coincidence that it lines the pockets of smartphone makers.
- lallysingh 4y ago
  Support costs money, and it's part of the price. This moralizing is ridiculous.
  - nhchris 4y ago
    That's my point - it doesn't cost money on PC. I don't need "support" from my motherboard vendor to install the latest linux.
    - lallysingh 4y ago
      Yeah. Part of that is radio support (open source phone projects have had this problem) and packaging - you still need a separate packaged image per phone model. Openmoko had the support problem (iirc) pretty early on. Until those ecosystem issues are fixed, dumping on a $150 phone for concessions that a $800-1000 phone doesn't have to make us pretty ridiculous.
      - nhchris 4y ago
        > Until those ecosystem issues are fixed Again, that is my point. No company has any incentive, or has made any moves to, fix the ecosystem. They're happy how there are no standards or documented APIs, how everything is a closed binary blob that changes from one insignificant version to the next. They don't demand any kind of support or openness from hardware suppliers, they don't form any standards or demand adherence to them, despite their massive market power (if Samsung wanted open or standards-compliant hardware, they'd get it), because they directly financially benefit from the broken status quo they created. > concessions that a $800-1000 phone doesn't have to make You can spend 2x that on an Android phone, and the software situation won't be any better. This is deliberate.

MrStonedOne 4y ago

[dead]

gman83 4y ago

FYI you can get LineageOS 20 (Android 13) for your Pixel 2 with the latest updates: https://www.xda-developers.com/lineageos-20-google-pixel-2-adt3-bq-aquaris-x-nubia-android-13-custom-rom/ https://www.xda-developers.com/lineageos-20-google-pixel-2-a...

pedrocr 4y ago
Last time I used LineageOS while you got the Android updates on most devices the underlying kernel and drivers were stuck at whatever the manufacturer originally shipped, and that included a bunch of security problems on most phones. Android security and updates is still a mess after all these years. For a while Android One seemed to help and I bought all my phones off that list, but even that's now gone. At this point anything that's not a Pixel within the (very short) support window is probably a big risk. Google really screwed this up.
- cookiengineer 4y ago
  This is all fixed now. Android 11 based ROMs introduced GSI (generic system images) which allow over the air updates and they even work with LineageOS. Needs a newer underlying linux kernel though, so all the outdated 2.x kernel ports won't be compatible. But I agree with you in your general point. Android OEM ROMs are a joke when it comes to support and they usually are out of date within the first year due to lack of maintenance on the vendor side. I wish there was a more generic platform approach to this where drivers could be just packages instead of this whole statically built images mess that is also unusable for most endusers.
- dominojab 4y ago
  [dead]
mlinksva 4y ago
That's defnitely a big benefit. I used LineageOS (whatever it was called then) to extend the life of my Galaxy S, but at that time not having a working phone for awhile was a lot less disruptive to life and work, so I didn't attempt this time. But once I'm 100% migrated to my new Pixel 7, I'll certainly put an alternative ROM on the Pixel 2 to extend its non-phone life!

hammock 4y ago

> The point being made about iphone is that it has a longer support duration. This seems highly complementary to repairability Seems like you might call that “software repairability”

mlinksva 4y ago
No, I'd just call it software support duration, or more narrowly software security update duration. "Software repairability" basically means FOSS (though I don't want to underestimate what creative people will do without source or permission).

cjsplat 4y ago

To be clear, the Pixel 2 is unsecurable at reasonable performance against Spectre style attacks. Might not matter to some.

tomrod 4y ago

> This seems highly complementary to repairability -- both seem important to maximize useful life -- and thus an entirely fair point, no? Repairability is more that once you buy it, you actually own it. Apple does not support this model. Real repairability is when you can hack all components of hardware and software in your domain (which precludes hacking against cell towers, ISP telecom equipment, etc.).

TazeTSchnitzel 4y ago
Nor do most Android vendors.
- tomrod 4y ago
  Correct, though that isn't concomitant to the point under discussion.