5 ms·

Don't they see how immoral it is to take over countries against their will? Are they just bad, immoral people?

leereeves 4y ago
That's not entirely a fair summary of the situation. The Ukrainian separatists asked for Russian help: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-allies-step-up-sanctions-pressure-russia-over-ukraine-2022-02-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-allies-step-up-sanct... Some people have questioned the legitimacy of that request and of the breakaway governments, but a Washington Post poll in 2021 found that over half of the respondents from those breakaway republics wanted to join Russia and only 12% wanted to rejoin Ukraine: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/12/new-survey-ukraine-russia-conflict-finds-deeply-divided-views-contested-donbas-region/?itid=lk_inline_manual_23 https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/12/new-surve...
- RivieraKid 4y ago
  I think it's an accurate summary. The separatists are under Russian control. The Russian army has been fighting alongside them since 2014, when they invaded Donbas. In the 1991 referendum, voters in Dontesk and Luhansk overwhelmingly voted against being part of Russia. Per your source, in the Ukrainian-controlled part of Donbas, 75% want to be part of Ukraine. In the Russian-controlled part of Donbas, 57% want to be part of Russia. First point, why such stark difference? I think it's because Russia is very good at propaganda and they exercise it heavily in areas under their control. Second point, this changes absolutely nothing about my claim that what Russia did and is doing is completely immoral, pure evil. They don't care about the people in the separatist republics, that's just a marketing spin that almost everyone can see through. It's about imperialism, revenge, power. Putin has been planing to absorb at least Belarus and Ukraine since a very long time. After all, Russia invaded the non-Russian controlled parts of Ukraine, which, per your source, are heavily against joining Russia. Even if some parts of Ukraine wanted to join Russia, it wouldn't give Russia the right to annex the territory. I'm curious why you have this view, what's your background - nationality, ethnicity, feelings about the West? (I'm from the Czech Republic.)
  - leereeves 4y ago
    > The separatists are under Russian control. I think this dehumanizes them. They chose to become part of Russia and the fact that they have mostly become part of Russia doesn't erase that choice. > In the 1991 referendum... A lot has happened since 1991. Don't you agree that a poll from 2021 is more relevant now? > First point, why such stark difference? An obvious explanation would be that only the areas where enough people wanted to leave Ukraine were controlled by the separatists. > Second point, this changes absolutely nothing about my claim that what Russia did and is doing is completely immoral, pure evil. If you mean that it's never moral to support separatists, I disagree completely. > I'm curious why you have this view I'm from the US. We are, first of all, a nation founded by "separatists", who also fought against other separatists to remain a single nation. I think each separatist cause needs to be evaluated on its merits, but in general (when something like slavery isn't involved) I think the people of a smaller region should be free to leave a larger nation if they wish. If I didn't believe that, I'd have to apply for British citizenship. And the US is also a nation that's done exactly what Russia is doing, many times. We nearly started a war because Russian weapons were too close to the US (in Cuba), just as Russia demands that Western weapons stay out of Ukraine. And we've invaded many nations on pretexts weaker than Russia's in this war. If we accepted those actions as precedents, they would justify Russia's actions in this war. Everything I hear seems to be tinged by a bit of an "it's only OK when we do it" attitude, so I feel that this war is about power and imperialism for the US as much as it is for Russia. And perhaps also for Ukraine. Ukraine has even demanded the return of Crimea, where even in 1991, only 54% wanted to be separate from Russia. After all that's happened, do you think Crimea really wants to return to Ukraine? My ideal solution would be a fair and binding vote on separation for all the regions in question, but I know no party would accept that.
    - mopsi 4y ago
      > I think this dehumanizes them. They chose to become part of Russia and the fact that they have mostly become part of Russia doesn't erase that choice. Does not dehumanize at all. Ukraine fell into political turmoil similar to January 6 riots in the US, and Russia used intelligence operatives to instigate further violent riots, quickly invaded parts of Ukraine taking advantage of the confusion, and established a military occupation. The so-called separatists were directly funded and supported by Russia in the earliest days, and then under the full control of the military admin after tanks rolled in. As I've told before, the European Court of Human Rights has confirmed the same when they were investigating whether Russia is responsible for MH17 shootdown, which happened on occupied territories. Since Russia had full control, ECHR found them responsible. Locals have had as much freedom to choose their future as Parisians in 1940.
- jemmyw 4y ago
  I don't really understand how such a poll can be considered legitimate or humane. From the news articles I've read since the 2014 separatist movement happened, the majority of people in that region left. So how can you have a poll where you say everyone agrees with you when you've driven out all the people who disagree?

That's not entirely a fair summary of the situation. The Ukrainian separatists asked for Russian help: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-allies-step-up-sanctions-pressure-russia-over-ukraine-2022-02-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-allies-step-up-sanct... Some people have questioned the legitimacy of that request and of the breakaway governments, but a Washington Post poll in 2021 found that over half of the respondents from those breakaway republics wanted to join Russia and only 12% wanted to rejoin Ukraine: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/12/new-survey-ukraine-russia-conflict-finds-deeply-divided-views-contested-donbas-region/?itid=lk_inline_manual_23 https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/12/new-surve...

RivieraKid 4y ago
I think it's an accurate summary. The separatists are under Russian control. The Russian army has been fighting alongside them since 2014, when they invaded Donbas. In the 1991 referendum, voters in Dontesk and Luhansk overwhelmingly voted against being part of Russia. Per your source, in the Ukrainian-controlled part of Donbas, 75% want to be part of Ukraine. In the Russian-controlled part of Donbas, 57% want to be part of Russia. First point, why such stark difference? I think it's because Russia is very good at propaganda and they exercise it heavily in areas under their control. Second point, this changes absolutely nothing about my claim that what Russia did and is doing is completely immoral, pure evil. They don't care about the people in the separatist republics, that's just a marketing spin that almost everyone can see through. It's about imperialism, revenge, power. Putin has been planing to absorb at least Belarus and Ukraine since a very long time. After all, Russia invaded the non-Russian controlled parts of Ukraine, which, per your source, are heavily against joining Russia. Even if some parts of Ukraine wanted to join Russia, it wouldn't give Russia the right to annex the territory. I'm curious why you have this view, what's your background - nationality, ethnicity, feelings about the West? (I'm from the Czech Republic.)
- leereeves 4y ago
  > The separatists are under Russian control. I think this dehumanizes them. They chose to become part of Russia and the fact that they have mostly become part of Russia doesn't erase that choice. > In the 1991 referendum... A lot has happened since 1991. Don't you agree that a poll from 2021 is more relevant now? > First point, why such stark difference? An obvious explanation would be that only the areas where enough people wanted to leave Ukraine were controlled by the separatists. > Second point, this changes absolutely nothing about my claim that what Russia did and is doing is completely immoral, pure evil. If you mean that it's never moral to support separatists, I disagree completely. > I'm curious why you have this view I'm from the US. We are, first of all, a nation founded by "separatists", who also fought against other separatists to remain a single nation. I think each separatist cause needs to be evaluated on its merits, but in general (when something like slavery isn't involved) I think the people of a smaller region should be free to leave a larger nation if they wish. If I didn't believe that, I'd have to apply for British citizenship. And the US is also a nation that's done exactly what Russia is doing, many times. We nearly started a war because Russian weapons were too close to the US (in Cuba), just as Russia demands that Western weapons stay out of Ukraine. And we've invaded many nations on pretexts weaker than Russia's in this war. If we accepted those actions as precedents, they would justify Russia's actions in this war. Everything I hear seems to be tinged by a bit of an "it's only OK when we do it" attitude, so I feel that this war is about power and imperialism for the US as much as it is for Russia. And perhaps also for Ukraine. Ukraine has even demanded the return of Crimea, where even in 1991, only 54% wanted to be separate from Russia. After all that's happened, do you think Crimea really wants to return to Ukraine? My ideal solution would be a fair and binding vote on separation for all the regions in question, but I know no party would accept that.
  - mopsi 4y ago
    > I think this dehumanizes them. They chose to become part of Russia and the fact that they have mostly become part of Russia doesn't erase that choice. Does not dehumanize at all. Ukraine fell into political turmoil similar to January 6 riots in the US, and Russia used intelligence operatives to instigate further violent riots, quickly invaded parts of Ukraine taking advantage of the confusion, and established a military occupation. The so-called separatists were directly funded and supported by Russia in the earliest days, and then under the full control of the military admin after tanks rolled in. As I've told before, the European Court of Human Rights has confirmed the same when they were investigating whether Russia is responsible for MH17 shootdown, which happened on occupied territories. Since Russia had full control, ECHR found them responsible. Locals have had as much freedom to choose their future as Parisians in 1940.
jemmyw 4y ago
I don't really understand how such a poll can be considered legitimate or humane. From the news articles I've read since the 2014 separatist movement happened, the majority of people in that region left. So how can you have a poll where you say everyone agrees with you when you've driven out all the people who disagree?