5 ms·

Can you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

Khaine 4y ago
Common sense. Employees can import foreign labour which has the effect of putting downward pressure on wages. Hence why wage inflation has stalled since COVID restrictions have been eased. And in terms of rental market, it has been widely reported. Westpac has forecast that Australian rents will continue to hyper inflate until mid-2024 because of soaring international migration. Westpac Business and St George senior economist Pat Bustamante warned the current rental inflation was likely to be longer and more severe than the prior cycles because demand via immigration was vastly outpacing supply. “Given the current supply and demand dynamics, and the lag in supply, the peak would likely take longer than people expect”, Bustamante told The AFR. “The return of migrants and international students… [is] putting a further strain on the rental market”. [1] People don't dare say reduce immigration because then you get called racist. [1] https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2023/02/westpac-migration-surge-delivers-record-rent-increases/ https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2023/02/westpac-migration-s...
- landswipe 4y ago
  'Employers', but I agree. The thing is, rental inflation is going to cause the property market to go pop... You can see it a mile away.
  - brokenmachine 4y ago
    What will be the effects when that happens?
- tallytarik 4y ago
  Thanks for answering. > Employees can import foreign labour which has the effect of putting downward pressure on wages. You didn’t cite any sources here, and according to [1] this is wrong. In response to your comments about the rental market, I noticed you picked a source that is overwhelmingly anti-immigration. (I counted 4 more articles either linked or ‘recommended’ that described in varying terms how immigration is the cause of all of Australia’s problems) I don’t say that as a means to ignore the argument, rather I think we’re all better when we can recognise biases - internal and external. According to [2], the rental crisis has been caused by many factors predominantly related to the pandemic rather than immigration. > People don't dare say reduce immigration because then you get called racist. I don’t think an argument should be dismissed on that basis, either! But surely you accept that some who advocate for reducing immigration do so simply because they are racist. Some may avoid the suggestion because they recognise that immigration is longstanding policy and perhaps a defining feature of our country. Some may see that other countries who are less welcoming of migrants are indeed having the same wage/inflation/property problems. So it is possible that some do not reject your argument because they think you are racist but because the argument is not convincing. [1] https://insidestory.org.au/does-immigration-mean-lower-wages/ https://insidestory.org.au/does-immigration-mean-lower-wages... [2] https://www.ahuri.edu.au/research/brief/why-does-australia-have-rental-crisis-and-what-can-be-done-about-it https://www.ahuri.edu.au/research/brief/why-does-australia-h...
  - Khaine 4y ago
    I didn't think I needed to provide evidence, because it is common sense driven by basic supply and demand. You want a developer, then if all or nearly all developers are employed you need to offer higher wages to them to defect to your company. If however you can import an immigrant and pay them the same or lower wage (which is better than they get in their home country), then suddenly you don't need to offer a higher wage to local developers. The fact that I need to explain, and prove, this to supposedly intelligent people is frankly mind boggling.
    - kilburn 4y ago
      The comment you are replying to provided links that include actual evidence to the contrary. Your reasoning is acknowledged in those links, and then they explain that this narrative sounds good but the data proves it wrong. Some things really are mind boggling :)
sumedh 4y ago
When there was no immigration during Covid salaries from people rose because employees could easily get a higher salary job so the employers were forced to increase salaries. Now that immigration is open employers will offer less salary compared to the market but a fresh of the plane immigrant will still end taking that job because his/hers first priority is getting a job and they dont fully know what the market rate is.
- tallytarik 4y ago
  > When there was no immigration during Covid salaries from people rose Source? I’m not aware wages on average increased during the pandemic. To the rest of your comment, it seems to be incorrect: https://insidestory.org.au/does-immigration-mean-lower-wages/ https://insidestory.org.au/does-immigration-mean-lower-wages...
  - sumedh 4y ago
    > I’m not aware wages on average increased during the pandemic. Did you switch jobs during Covid? Talk to your friends and colleagues who switched jobs and then get back to me. Before you link any random website, you have to figure out what is their agenda. There is lot of propaganda. These so called studies claim that immigration does not hurt wages, then you have to look into who is sponsoring these studies. Lot of times its some industry lobby group who wants to lobby for more immigration to suppress wages funds these studies to get the conclusion they want. If you trust such studies you should also trust that cigarettes are good for you because cigarette companies paid scientists in the past to conduct studies to show doctors recommend cigarettes. Don't fall for such propaganda again or try running a business where you have to hire employees.
    - tallytarik 4y ago
      > Talk to your friends and colleagues who switched jobs and then get back to me. They increased their salary! Did you know that lots of other people didn't change jobs during the pandemic? In fact, some people even lost their jobs! And lots of others kept the same job at the same salary (while inflation increased). From 14 March to 3 October 2020, for example, the ABS reported that wages were down -3.3% (and would be much lower if you excluded JobKeeper payments)[1]. We're on a tech website, so if you had scoped your comment to "tech workers salaries rose on average", I would probably agree. Do remember that the world doesn't consist entirely of tech workers. > There is lot of propaganda. This is certainly true. But given you didn't provide any of your own sources to back up anything you're saying, some might think you're using accusations of "propaganda" as a simple means to disagree with something you don't like. [1] https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp2021/COVID-19-Stat_Snapshot https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Depart...

Common sense. Employees can import foreign labour which has the effect of putting downward pressure on wages. Hence why wage inflation has stalled since COVID restrictions have been eased. And in terms of rental market, it has been widely reported. Westpac has forecast that Australian rents will continue to hyper inflate until mid-2024 because of soaring international migration. Westpac Business and St George senior economist Pat Bustamante warned the current rental inflation was likely to be longer and more severe than the prior cycles because demand via immigration was vastly outpacing supply. “Given the current supply and demand dynamics, and the lag in supply, the peak would likely take longer than people expect”, Bustamante told The AFR. “The return of migrants and international students… [is] putting a further strain on the rental market”. [1] People don't dare say reduce immigration because then you get called racist. [1] https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2023/02/westpac-migration-surge-delivers-record-rent-increases/ https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2023/02/westpac-migration-s...

landswipe 4y ago
'Employers', but I agree. The thing is, rental inflation is going to cause the property market to go pop... You can see it a mile away.
- brokenmachine 4y ago
  What will be the effects when that happens?
tallytarik 4y ago
Thanks for answering. > Employees can import foreign labour which has the effect of putting downward pressure on wages. You didn’t cite any sources here, and according to [1] this is wrong. In response to your comments about the rental market, I noticed you picked a source that is overwhelmingly anti-immigration. (I counted 4 more articles either linked or ‘recommended’ that described in varying terms how immigration is the cause of all of Australia’s problems) I don’t say that as a means to ignore the argument, rather I think we’re all better when we can recognise biases - internal and external. According to [2], the rental crisis has been caused by many factors predominantly related to the pandemic rather than immigration. > People don't dare say reduce immigration because then you get called racist. I don’t think an argument should be dismissed on that basis, either! But surely you accept that some who advocate for reducing immigration do so simply because they are racist. Some may avoid the suggestion because they recognise that immigration is longstanding policy and perhaps a defining feature of our country. Some may see that other countries who are less welcoming of migrants are indeed having the same wage/inflation/property problems. So it is possible that some do not reject your argument because they think you are racist but because the argument is not convincing. [1] https://insidestory.org.au/does-immigration-mean-lower-wages/ https://insidestory.org.au/does-immigration-mean-lower-wages... [2] https://www.ahuri.edu.au/research/brief/why-does-australia-have-rental-crisis-and-what-can-be-done-about-it https://www.ahuri.edu.au/research/brief/why-does-australia-h...
- Khaine 4y ago
  I didn't think I needed to provide evidence, because it is common sense driven by basic supply and demand. You want a developer, then if all or nearly all developers are employed you need to offer higher wages to them to defect to your company. If however you can import an immigrant and pay them the same or lower wage (which is better than they get in their home country), then suddenly you don't need to offer a higher wage to local developers. The fact that I need to explain, and prove, this to supposedly intelligent people is frankly mind boggling.
  - kilburn 4y ago
    The comment you are replying to provided links that include actual evidence to the contrary. Your reasoning is acknowledged in those links, and then they explain that this narrative sounds good but the data proves it wrong. Some things really are mind boggling :)

sumedh 4y ago

When there was no immigration during Covid salaries from people rose because employees could easily get a higher salary job so the employers were forced to increase salaries. Now that immigration is open employers will offer less salary compared to the market but a fresh of the plane immigrant will still end taking that job because his/hers first priority is getting a job and they dont fully know what the market rate is.

tallytarik 4y ago
> When there was no immigration during Covid salaries from people rose Source? I’m not aware wages on average increased during the pandemic. To the rest of your comment, it seems to be incorrect: https://insidestory.org.au/does-immigration-mean-lower-wages/ https://insidestory.org.au/does-immigration-mean-lower-wages...
- sumedh 4y ago
  > I’m not aware wages on average increased during the pandemic. Did you switch jobs during Covid? Talk to your friends and colleagues who switched jobs and then get back to me. Before you link any random website, you have to figure out what is their agenda. There is lot of propaganda. These so called studies claim that immigration does not hurt wages, then you have to look into who is sponsoring these studies. Lot of times its some industry lobby group who wants to lobby for more immigration to suppress wages funds these studies to get the conclusion they want. If you trust such studies you should also trust that cigarettes are good for you because cigarette companies paid scientists in the past to conduct studies to show doctors recommend cigarettes. Don't fall for such propaganda again or try running a business where you have to hire employees.
  - tallytarik 4y ago
    > Talk to your friends and colleagues who switched jobs and then get back to me. They increased their salary! Did you know that lots of other people didn't change jobs during the pandemic? In fact, some people even lost their jobs! And lots of others kept the same job at the same salary (while inflation increased). From 14 March to 3 October 2020, for example, the ABS reported that wages were down -3.3% (and would be much lower if you excluded JobKeeper payments)[1]. We're on a tech website, so if you had scoped your comment to "tech workers salaries rose on average", I would probably agree. Do remember that the world doesn't consist entirely of tech workers. > There is lot of propaganda. This is certainly true. But given you didn't provide any of your own sources to back up anything you're saying, some might think you're using accusations of "propaganda" as a simple means to disagree with something you don't like. [1] https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp2021/COVID-19-Stat_Snapshot https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Depart...