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Scientists lugged logs on their heads to resolve Chaco Canyon mystery
- bombcar 4y agoNow that’s using your head!
- hummus_bae 4y ago[dead]
- hanniabu 4y agoHow bad is this type of load for your spine/neck?
- throwawaaarrgh 4y agohttps://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/08/tumplines/537306/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/08/tumpl...
- frankreyes 4y agoIs this the same physics principle as an aluminum can while closed and full of drink, that can support a lot of weight on top?
- throwawaaarrgh 4y agoMore like a vertical twig that has ropes tied from the middle trailing off to the left and right. If you have enough ropes then it's really the ropes holding the weight in tension, not the twig in compression
- throwawaaarrgh 4y agoI'm constantly surprised that Western backpackers don't use tumplines. Virtually every culture in the world uses them, if they don't balance the load right on top of their head. It makes everything easier. But I guess it's not "dignified", or perhaps recalls the porters that work for the stylish westerners that pay for them
- Retric 4y agoIt’s a difference in intent. Tumolines are great for heavy loads but interfere with the fun aspects of backpacking. People would rather take less stuff if it means they can more easily take in the view.
- eesmith 4y agoHere's an example. The Duluth Pack (https://www.duluthpack.com/products/2-original-59l https://www.duluthpack.com/products/2-original-59l) includes a tumpline. The pack was designed over a century ago, for wilderness canoeing. Here's an picture of someone using it with a tumpline: https://archive.org/details/beyondpaddlecano0000cono/page/66/mode/2up?q=%22Duluth+pack%22+tumpline https://archive.org/details/beyondpaddlecano0000cono/page/66... . This fits your description because it's used when portaging. The goal is to get to the next navigable stretch of water, not take in the view, while carrying 100+ pounds of gear in the bag and a canoe over one's head. In canoeing they are used for relatively short stretches. The various sources say it's not that comfortable. I found a backpacking guide from 1971 which explains the issue: "If you can stand the abuse, a tumpline surpasses all devices for toting heavy, bulky, or awkward loads. A 100-pound burden is routine among the few who understand the tumpline. During its heyday, 200-pound loads were commonplace among voyageurs in the fur trade ... The packer must lean forward abnormally. It is not a rig for amateur packers or for occasional weekend trips. In fact, the tumpline must be approached with respect. It will handle tremendous loads but only after your neck muscles have been developed. No packing device depends more upon sheer bull strength, but it does the job." - https://archive.org/details/backcountrycampi00rivi/page/16/mode/2up?q=%22Duluth+pack%22+tumpline https://archive.org/details/backcountrycampi00rivi/page/16/m... I expect that if you're part of a culture where people need to to carry heavy loads often, then you'll start young and build up the neck muscles which will make it more comfortable. Someone going backpacking a few weeks every year is not going to have the same specific training.
- neilv 4y agoAn emeritus professor who'd risk debilitating chronic neck/back pain, when disposable grad students are a dime a dozen?
- lapama 4y agoIt's called passion xD !!!
- Jabrov 4y agoWho cares?
- Mistletoe 4y agoThere’s a neat documentary about Chaco Canyon narrated by Robert Redford on Amazon Prime. I’ve wanted to go ever since.
- brudgers 4y agoGo. You won’t regret it.
- dreamcompiler 4y agoBring a car with a good suspension. The road is brutal.
- madaxe_again 4y agoWeird that they describe carrying a log over your shoulders as debilitating - it’s how I carry 150kg+ ash trunks around the place - lift one end, walk along it until I’m at the balance point, and then roll it onto my shoulders, behind my neck, and then loop my arms over the top of it. Takes virtually zero effort to maintain once it’s up there, particularly if the hands going over can hold onto a rope attached under the armpits (I use a lifting strap and thread my hands though the loops), so you can relax them - and terrain is easy - occasionally I’ll have to swing one end or the other forwards to make my way through a narrow gap. When I need a break, I just lift my arms and step forwards. You don’t even have to bend over to pick it up - just stomp on the end and catch it when it bounces up. I tried tumplines early on. They just make my neck hurt. I do carry buckets and other small dense things around on my head, using a beanbag to cushion, but the torques from a log swinging about are just too much.
- tstrimple 4y agoIt seems that many folk (me included) don’t believe you’re routinely carrying 330lbs on your shoulders without noticing and that it takes zero effort.
- dustymcp 4y agoMaybe he is from Iceland ?
- Luc 4y agoI follow madaxe_again on Twitter, and yeah, he's pretty strong, but he also didn't say what you claim he said.
- madaxe_again 4y agoIt takes zero effort to maintain - not to walk around with! I end up a sweaty wreck after moving a trunk, but the load is basically all on the legs and spine, straight down the column. What I mean by “maintain” is that you expend no bodily energy on the actual grip, and it’s secure enough that it doesn’t move around on you and make life hard when you’re moving over uneven terrain. I honestly didn’t realise how heavy what some of what I was moving was until I started stacking it to dry, as with the method I describe you never actually have to lift the mass - just carry it.
- stuaxo 4y agoThe headline sounds very Dr Suisse like. I tried asking chatgpt to rewrite in the style of Dr Suisse, while the wording is good the flow could be better, so I won't post it here.
- jaclaz 4y agoAs I see it, 2 people carrying a 60 kg log seems saying very little about 3 people carrying a (longer) 85 kg one. You would need far better synchronization of movements and people of the same height or exactly regulated straps for the tumpline and besides, a log 2.50 mt long behaves differently than a 3.50 mt long one when it comes to maneuverability.
- brudgers 4y agoA work song would simplify synchronization. And experience, as we see with contemporary sports, soldiering, musical performance, and dance.
- jaclaz 4y agoOf course experience and synchronization would matter. But if the hypothesis is that three people carried a 85 kg, 3.50 m long log, the experiment with two people carrying a 60 kg, 2.50 m is not representative of that. It is not like they couldn't find a third volunteer and attempt replicating exactly the hypothesis.
- brudgers 4y agoOne person forms a single pivot point. Two persons spaced a reasonable distance apart will damp rotation and hence torque. Adding a third person would limit log oscillations even more.
- jaclaz 4y agoWell, according to common engineering formulas, three supports inline will never get a third of the load each. It is a continuous beam with a distributed load (only own weight). Look for "Continuous Beam – Two Equal Spans – Uniformly Distributed Load" here: https://www.linsgroup.com/MECHANICAL_DESIGN/Beam/beam_formula.htm https://www.linsgroup.com/MECHANICAL_DESIGN/Beam/beam_formul... Hint: you'd better put the strongest guy in the middle.
- frankreyes 4y agoI always use a backpack to carry heavy stuff over long time, every time I've tried to use duffle bags, it hurts so much.
- treis 4y agoKind of odd that they don't mention the obvious solution of floating them down rivers. That's how loggers did it before trains & trucks.
- brianbreslin 4y agobriefly looking at a google map, i don't see many rivers connecting near chaco canyon. Maybe there were rivers in that era that could work.
- treis 4y agoThose white lines are rivers that exist only during the rainy season and/or snow melts. There's like a 1-2 mile gap between them north of Chaco Canyon. Otherwise, there's water all the way up into the mountains. And if there's not rivers, how exactly are you making a 70 mile trek across the desert carrying heavy logs? Anyone doing that would need lots of water and would likely try to follow rivers anyways.
- treis 4y agoAlso, a significant human settlement likely needs lots of wood for fires. Unlikely they're doing that by carrying it from 70 miles away.
- eesmith 4y agohttps://web.archive.org/web/20090326082103/http://wwwpaztcn.wr.usgs.gov/julio_pdf/Reynolds_ea.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20090326082103/http://wwwpaztcn.... (linked-to from the Wikipedia article) has a map showing where the wood came from; "mostly from the Chuska Mountains to the west and the La Plata and San Juan Mountains to the north and possibly Hosta Butte to the south" From the Chuska Mountains, they would need to be brought to the Chaco River then floated/moved upstream. From the other mountains, it's a lot further, and a lot more upriver transport. Which is not easy. > how exactly are you making a 70 mile trek across the desert carrying heavy logs? Hence this research. Which mentions how they built good roads. Eg, https://www.nps.gov/chcu/learn/historyculture/chacoan-roads.htm https://www.nps.gov/chcu/learn/historyculture/chacoan-roads.... says: "An astonishing volume and variety of material was imported to Chaco Canyon, including approximately 200,000 wooden beams used in the construction of the great houses. These beams, often whole trunks of ponderosa pine, had to be brought in from considerable distances, mostly from the Chuska Mountains and Mount Taylor. Since walking on the roads is easier than walking off of them, they would have been quite useful in carrying such heavy loads such great distances, even if this was not their primary purpose." > Anyone doing that would need lots of water and would likely try to follow rivers anyways. You can have enough water for human consumption but be far from what's needed to float a log. And they had an extensive canal system, with dams to capture runoff water. As https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/4BF5354A0977E909979DB4ACBCB2A2FD/S0003598X1800114Xa.pdf/water-uncertainty-ritual-predictability-and-agricultural-canals-at-chaco-canyon-new-mexico.pdf https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/c... says: "In particular, some researchers identify Chaco Canyon, located in the San Juan Basin of New Mexico, as an “unlikely setting” for substantial occupation ... Debates over whether food was grown locally or supplied from distant settlements dominate the literature ... While the presence of complex canal systems has long been noted (e.g. Vivian 1990), the difficulty in dating these constructions has led to doubts over their existence and utility ... Our recent fieldwork on one canal network definitively dates it to Chaco’s Bonito Phase occupation"
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> the assumptions since 1980 about the mass of a typical roof beam (viga) used in one of the great houses was likely too high: 275 kilograms, a bit more than 600 pounds. “I cut a 1-foot-long section of pine and weighed it on my bathroom scale… I’m frequently blown away by the low-hanging fruit in archæology.
- gadders 4y agoNot being funny, but the people in the article photos don't look particularly strong. Perhaps a better theory is that the people who built the houses weren't deconditioned as they didn't live a sedentary lifestyle? Create the "Chaco Valley Log Race", stick $5k up as a prize and you'll have strongmen and crossfit athletes carrying the log single-handed for the required distance.
- aardshark 4y agoSounds like Ross Edgley's Treeathalon See: https://www.redbull.com/int-en/this-man-did-a-triathlon-carrying-a-45kg-tree https://www.redbull.com/int-en/this-man-did-a-triathlon-carr... And: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv7SHbW6FV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv7SHbW6FV0
- karaterobot 4y ago> Perhaps a better theory is that the people who built the houses weren't deconditioned as they didn't live a sedentary lifestyle? Not sure how that's a better theory. Why wouldn't a stronger carrier also benefit from a tumpline method? You're thinking maybe they were so strong they just carried it in their hands, or over their shoulders?
- gadders 4y agoMaybe? You make a fair point. I guess it would depend on the incentives for carrying the log(s). Maybe there was a "fastest team gets double rations" (like possibly for the pyramids) or "last one to arrive gets killed" (like Vercingetorix). However, if it's "Just get this log from there to there and it's not time critical" maybe it doesn't matter. //edit//However getting physically fit/strong people to do it in a race condition with a prize might throw up some brand new ideas.
- zamnos 4y agoThat's a Hollywood, underwear model, ad marketing impression of what strong men are supposed to look like. Core strength matters a ton more. https://www.tiktok.com/@annabg9898/video/7157326693462543642 https://www.tiktok.com/@annabg9898/video/7157326693462543642
- jgarzon 4y agoI have been to Chaco canyon. And spoke to some local Indians, they believe it was a sort of prison. So I would assume the health of the carriers was the least of their concern. It is an amazing place full of mystery.
- checkyoursudo 4y agoThe pine boards in my house weigh more per volume than pine boards that I can buy today. I read or heard once that old-growth wood is denser (therefore, heavier) than new-growth wood. I don't know if this is true or a myth, but if anyone reads the paper, let me know if this is discussed as a possible limitation or explanation for the discrepancy.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]