6 ms·

Was it the same UK government that put Turing into jail?

by quantum_state 4y ago

upwardbound 4y ago
[flagged]
- desro 4y ago
  I'm (non-confrontationally) curious if you fact checked this before posting, or if it was a quick copy and paste. Truly: just curious.
  - upwardbound 4y ago
    To elaborate on what I said earlier, I should said that I *failed* in a naive attempt to fact check before being foiled by my lack of knowledge of the UK system of power. What does it mean "to hold power"? Google didn't have any simple answers about who "held power" in which year and neither did wikipedia. How am I supposed to find these answers if I wasn't taught them in history class like you were? I'm sorry I gave up but I have limited mental energy to slack off on a forum and a ton of work to do. I visited at least 3 wikipedia articles and felt like I had no more than 25% of the information I needed to even answer this question. And so ChatGPT tempted me with a quick promise of an answer..
  - upwardbound 4y ago
    quick copy & paste, as I stated I did not bother to fact check since I'm in the middle of work and in a rush and figured that giving a disclaimer that I didn't fact check it was enuf
    - michaelmrose 4y ago
      Anyone here can enter a search into google or query chatGPT if they want to. It brings down the level of discourse to paste a stream of consciousness, a google search, or your convo with chatGPT. You are wasting everyone's time and giving a disclaimer that you intend to waste everyone's time changes little.
primitivesuave 4y ago
Technically he was never in jail - he was given the choice between imprisonment (homosexuality was a criminal offense back then) or chemical castration. He plead guilty to "gross indecency" and was ostracized by the scientific community until his death. The British government issued a formal apology and overturned his conviction around a decade ago.
908B64B197 4y ago
The state forced him to undergo chemical castration. Same state kept his achievements and contribution to the war effort a secret up until after his death. Crazy to think he was convicted in 1952. Same year Elizabeth became Queen and head of state. She could have simply overturned his conviction. The man saved women, men, children, of all races and orientations from an horrible end. Had he not cracked the enigma's cryptography, there would most likely remain nothing today of the crown that persecuted him. Blown to dust by the Luftwaffe. If only the British government had extended the same humanity to Turing himself.
- simple-thoughts 4y ago
  It’s not crazy, it’s exactly what would be expected from any State throughout history. The people who are crazy are the ones who expect something different. As far back as Plato’s Republic, both theory and practice of State require sacrificing the individual for the greater good - where the greater good is defined by those in power. Of course I fully support the State and you should to or else.
- nlitened 4y ago
  If I understand correctly, the “chemical castration” that Turing was subject to, is the same substance that nowadays US kids with gender disphoria are prescribed.
  - vore 4y ago
    There’s a difference between using it as treatment vs punishment though. That’s like saying they use the same substance for lethal injections (pentobarbital) for treating anxiety.
  - the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
    The US prescribes Diethylstilbestrol against gender dysphoria? I would like a source for that.
  - sirsinsalot 4y ago
    You mean the effects of drugs have different uses in different contexts?! What?! That's amazing!
Veen 4y ago
No, because 1) Turing wasn’t jailed and 2) The Government doesn’t put people in jail; that’s the courts.
- Thorrez 4y ago
  Speaking from a US standpoint: 1. The legislature makes laws 2. The courts make judgements based on those laws 3. The police officers drag people into jail All 3 are part of the government.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    The UK isn't the US. The UK government does not work like or even resemble the US government.
    - sfe22 4y ago
      Looks the same setup as the US. Courts are part of the government https://www.judiciary.uk/about-the-judiciary/our-justice-system/jud-acc-ind/justice-sys-and-constitution/ https://www.judiciary.uk/about-the-judiciary/our-justice-sys...
      - Veen 4y ago
        Here’s the relevant part to this thread from the page you linked: “The justice system is one of the three branches of the state. The other two branches are the executive, or the government, and the legislature, which is the two Houses of Parliament”
  - martinflack 4y ago
    In the UK, "the Government" is a phrase more akin to "the x Administration" (where x is the President) in the US; although technically it includes the parliamentary majority as well as the executive.
- tgv 4y ago
  The latter isn't correct or at least incomplete on two accounts: - The investigators and prosecutors are dependent on the government. - A judge sentences, but doesn't carry out the punishment. But certainly the initiative to investigate and prosecute Turing did directly come from the government. It was after all the PM who apologized for it.
6LLvveMx2koXfwn 4y ago
Same state, different government.
notahacker 4y ago
In the same sense that the Biden administration put homosexuals, suspected communists and people who violated desegregation laws in jail, perhaps...

Was it the same UK government that put Turing into jail?

upwardbound 4y ago

[flagged]

desro 4y ago
I'm (non-confrontationally) curious if you fact checked this before posting, or if it was a quick copy and paste. Truly: just curious.
- upwardbound 4y ago
  To elaborate on what I said earlier, I should said that I *failed* in a naive attempt to fact check before being foiled by my lack of knowledge of the UK system of power. What does it mean "to hold power"? Google didn't have any simple answers about who "held power" in which year and neither did wikipedia. How am I supposed to find these answers if I wasn't taught them in history class like you were? I'm sorry I gave up but I have limited mental energy to slack off on a forum and a ton of work to do. I visited at least 3 wikipedia articles and felt like I had no more than 25% of the information I needed to even answer this question. And so ChatGPT tempted me with a quick promise of an answer..
- upwardbound 4y ago
  quick copy & paste, as I stated I did not bother to fact check since I'm in the middle of work and in a rush and figured that giving a disclaimer that I didn't fact check it was enuf
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    Anyone here can enter a search into google or query chatGPT if they want to. It brings down the level of discourse to paste a stream of consciousness, a google search, or your convo with chatGPT. You are wasting everyone's time and giving a disclaimer that you intend to waste everyone's time changes little.

primitivesuave 4y ago

Technically he was never in jail - he was given the choice between imprisonment (homosexuality was a criminal offense back then) or chemical castration. He plead guilty to "gross indecency" and was ostracized by the scientific community until his death. The British government issued a formal apology and overturned his conviction around a decade ago.

908B64B197 4y ago

The state forced him to undergo chemical castration. Same state kept his achievements and contribution to the war effort a secret up until after his death. Crazy to think he was convicted in 1952. Same year Elizabeth became Queen and head of state. She could have simply overturned his conviction. The man saved women, men, children, of all races and orientations from an horrible end. Had he not cracked the enigma's cryptography, there would most likely remain nothing today of the crown that persecuted him. Blown to dust by the Luftwaffe. If only the British government had extended the same humanity to Turing himself.

simple-thoughts 4y ago
It’s not crazy, it’s exactly what would be expected from any State throughout history. The people who are crazy are the ones who expect something different. As far back as Plato’s Republic, both theory and practice of State require sacrificing the individual for the greater good - where the greater good is defined by those in power. Of course I fully support the State and you should to or else.
nlitened 4y ago
If I understand correctly, the “chemical castration” that Turing was subject to, is the same substance that nowadays US kids with gender disphoria are prescribed.
- vore 4y ago
  There’s a difference between using it as treatment vs punishment though. That’s like saying they use the same substance for lethal injections (pentobarbital) for treating anxiety.
- the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
  The US prescribes Diethylstilbestrol against gender dysphoria? I would like a source for that.
- sirsinsalot 4y ago
  You mean the effects of drugs have different uses in different contexts?! What?! That's amazing!

Veen 4y ago

No, because 1) Turing wasn’t jailed and 2) The Government doesn’t put people in jail; that’s the courts.

Thorrez 4y ago
Speaking from a US standpoint: 1. The legislature makes laws 2. The courts make judgements based on those laws 3. The police officers drag people into jail All 3 are part of the government.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  The UK isn't the US. The UK government does not work like or even resemble the US government.
  - sfe22 4y ago
    Looks the same setup as the US. Courts are part of the government https://www.judiciary.uk/about-the-judiciary/our-justice-system/jud-acc-ind/justice-sys-and-constitution/ https://www.judiciary.uk/about-the-judiciary/our-justice-sys...
    - Veen 4y ago
      Here’s the relevant part to this thread from the page you linked: “The justice system is one of the three branches of the state. The other two branches are the executive, or the government, and the legislature, which is the two Houses of Parliament”
- martinflack 4y ago
  In the UK, "the Government" is a phrase more akin to "the x Administration" (where x is the President) in the US; although technically it includes the parliamentary majority as well as the executive.
tgv 4y ago
The latter isn't correct or at least incomplete on two accounts: - The investigators and prosecutors are dependent on the government. - A judge sentences, but doesn't carry out the punishment. But certainly the initiative to investigate and prosecute Turing did directly come from the government. It was after all the PM who apologized for it.

6LLvveMx2koXfwn 4y ago

Same state, different government.

notahacker 4y ago

In the same sense that the Biden administration put homosexuals, suspected communists and people who violated desegregation laws in jail, perhaps...