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I don't think willpower has anything to do with it.

by exfatloss 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ManuelKiessling 4y ago
How come that you think this?
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Ozempic and Wegovy. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/31/opinion/ozempic-weight-loss-drugs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/31/opinion/ozempic-weight-lo... https://archive.is/rnTGB https://archive.is/rnTGB https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/01/30/1152039799/ozempic-wegovy-weight-loss-drugs https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/01/30/1152039...
  - exfatloss 4y ago
    I wouldn't try these until they've been studied further: https://peterattiamd.com/the-downside-of-glp-1-receptor-agonists/ https://peterattiamd.com/the-downside-of-glp-1-receptor-agon...
    - gruez 4y ago
      From the linked article: >Among these patients, lean mass accounted for approximately 39% of total weight loss – substantially higher than ideal. In a substudy of 178 patients from the SUSTAIN 8 trial on semaglutide as a diabetes treatment, the average proportion of lean mass loss was nearly identical at 40%, despite lower doses and less total weight loss than in the STEP 1 trial. [...] Or in other words, 60% of the weight loss was in fat. The article paints this as concerning, but doesn't provide justification why. Sure, it'd be better to have 0% lean body mass loss, but how does 40% stack compared to calorie deficit diets? The mechanism of action behind the drugs is to cause you to eat less, and if the side effects are consistent with eating less, I don't see why people should be extra concerned.
      - exfatloss 4y ago
        Also from the article: > Though a certain amount of lean loss is inevitable with significant weight reduction (usually about 25% of total weight loss) The justification is provided: this is nearly double the lean body mass loss usually seen in drastic weight loss. Yes, 0% is impossible, but this is worryingly high. It might be OK in younger individuals who have a ton of fat mass to lose, and they might gain any lean body mass back. But in older individuals that are already having a hard time exercising, it's unlikely that lean body mass will ever come back. Makes me think these drugs should probably be a measure of last resort. Unless more studies defuse this.
  - sundvor 4y ago
    Those are outliers. For the rest of us there's discipline and sheer willpower, as well as smart energy management. Train too hard? My appetite goes nuts. Train not enough? The weight loss is muscle. It kind of never stops. (Speaking as someone fast approaching the big five oh, on the very upper end of the normal BMI and not enough muscle to sugar coat all the excess gut fat which somehow disappears when clothed thanks to an above average height yet is still very much a risk factor.)
    - kaba0 4y ago
      BMI can be misleading sometimes, more than normal muscle mass for example is not really accounted for — if you have the chance have a look at your body fat percentage.
- exfatloss 4y ago
  Cause I just lost 48lbs without using any willpower: https://exfatloss.substack.com/p/losing-43lbs-in-144-days-on-ex150-diet https://exfatloss.substack.com/p/losing-43lbs-in-144-days-on...
  - plaguuuuuu 4y ago
    The amount of willpower I'd need to stick to a diet consisting primarily of whipped cream and butter is pretty immense my dude. It's far easier for me to just do caloric restriction. Granted I wouldn't lose weight as quickly.
  - WillPostForFood 4y ago
    Give yourself some credit, you show a lot of evidence of willpower to try and execute things. If you are able to do 30 days of just about anything, you are better than most. ------- To emphasize: the real point is the meta-framework of experiments. Formulate a hypothesis, design a 30-day experiment, test it. I’ve probably done dozens of these over the years. Here are some examples from the last few years: 30 days of cold showers 90 days of no online news (I thought stress might contribute) 90 days of the carnivore diet 30 days of eating only at In’n’out burger Doing Starting Strength, a beginner’s powerlifting program Doing Simple & Sinister, a kettlebell training program 30 days of a low-fiber diet 30 days of a low-protein diet 30 days of a potato diet 30 days of drinking only distilled water (including for coffee) Eating only pemmican, a raw meat paste invented by Native Americans
    - exfatloss 4y ago
      Ha, thanks :) But I had that "willpower" for decades and didn't lose much weight. Certainly "pushing harder" didn't change anything. And then flicking one little switch made it super easy with no willpower involved. So I just don't see how the willpower is related to losing fat.
      - fishtacos 4y ago
        There is no little switch. Keto has been around millennia in various forms. Atkins' diet is well-known. That you took the time to test these various dietary restrictions and found no result until you landed on what is effectively a lopsided Atkins diet, isn't surprising. Do have to add - it's impressive that you went through all these documented efforts. In the name of science and all that.
JamesBarney 4y ago
You don't think it requires any willpower to restrict yourself and change how you eat? That might have been your experience but millions of other people claim otherwise. Either a million people are wrong, or you're an anomaly. I think the latter is more likely.
- exfatloss 4y ago
  I'm saying that if you rely on willpower, you will fail. Of course you should change how you eat if how you ate caused you health problems. But I'm advocating for making a conscious change that will then enable you to eat without having to use willpower. That's why "just eat less" is terrible advice and works for practically nobody. It's like finances. "Just save more" is terrible advice. Getting a degree or finding a high paying job or setting up automatic 401k contributions doesn't require willpower day-to-day, and has a much higher chance of success.
  - JamesBarney 4y ago
    Ahh basically try to make meta decisions that limit the willpower needed. Like don't buy a bag of chips in the store which requires a little bit of willpower once vs having to have the same willpower success everyday. Yeah 100% agreement.
    - exfatloss 4y ago
      Right, make a clever decision in a bright moment. Don't rely on willpower day-to-day. General life strategy :) Not buying the bag of chips is an obvious example, as is buying a used car vs. leasing a new one. Picking a diet that doesn't make you overeat is another one, and I'm in the process of figuring out what that means for me :)
  - lamontcg 4y ago
    > That's why "just eat less" is terrible advice and works for practically nobody. Saying "willpower doesn't work" is just as bad. I actually agree with what you are trying to say, but you're arguing it very poorly.

I don't think willpower has anything to do with it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ManuelKiessling 4y ago

How come that you think this?

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Ozempic and Wegovy. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/31/opinion/ozempic-weight-loss-drugs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/31/opinion/ozempic-weight-lo... https://archive.is/rnTGB https://archive.is/rnTGB https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/01/30/1152039799/ozempic-wegovy-weight-loss-drugs https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/01/30/1152039...
- exfatloss 4y ago
  I wouldn't try these until they've been studied further: https://peterattiamd.com/the-downside-of-glp-1-receptor-agonists/ https://peterattiamd.com/the-downside-of-glp-1-receptor-agon...
  - gruez 4y ago
    From the linked article: >Among these patients, lean mass accounted for approximately 39% of total weight loss – substantially higher than ideal. In a substudy of 178 patients from the SUSTAIN 8 trial on semaglutide as a diabetes treatment, the average proportion of lean mass loss was nearly identical at 40%, despite lower doses and less total weight loss than in the STEP 1 trial. [...] Or in other words, 60% of the weight loss was in fat. The article paints this as concerning, but doesn't provide justification why. Sure, it'd be better to have 0% lean body mass loss, but how does 40% stack compared to calorie deficit diets? The mechanism of action behind the drugs is to cause you to eat less, and if the side effects are consistent with eating less, I don't see why people should be extra concerned.
    - exfatloss 4y ago
      Also from the article: > Though a certain amount of lean loss is inevitable with significant weight reduction (usually about 25% of total weight loss) The justification is provided: this is nearly double the lean body mass loss usually seen in drastic weight loss. Yes, 0% is impossible, but this is worryingly high. It might be OK in younger individuals who have a ton of fat mass to lose, and they might gain any lean body mass back. But in older individuals that are already having a hard time exercising, it's unlikely that lean body mass will ever come back. Makes me think these drugs should probably be a measure of last resort. Unless more studies defuse this.
- sundvor 4y ago
  Those are outliers. For the rest of us there's discipline and sheer willpower, as well as smart energy management. Train too hard? My appetite goes nuts. Train not enough? The weight loss is muscle. It kind of never stops. (Speaking as someone fast approaching the big five oh, on the very upper end of the normal BMI and not enough muscle to sugar coat all the excess gut fat which somehow disappears when clothed thanks to an above average height yet is still very much a risk factor.)
  - kaba0 4y ago
    BMI can be misleading sometimes, more than normal muscle mass for example is not really accounted for — if you have the chance have a look at your body fat percentage.
exfatloss 4y ago
Cause I just lost 48lbs without using any willpower: https://exfatloss.substack.com/p/losing-43lbs-in-144-days-on-ex150-diet https://exfatloss.substack.com/p/losing-43lbs-in-144-days-on...
- plaguuuuuu 4y ago
  The amount of willpower I'd need to stick to a diet consisting primarily of whipped cream and butter is pretty immense my dude. It's far easier for me to just do caloric restriction. Granted I wouldn't lose weight as quickly.
- WillPostForFood 4y ago
  Give yourself some credit, you show a lot of evidence of willpower to try and execute things. If you are able to do 30 days of just about anything, you are better than most. ------- To emphasize: the real point is the meta-framework of experiments. Formulate a hypothesis, design a 30-day experiment, test it. I’ve probably done dozens of these over the years. Here are some examples from the last few years: 30 days of cold showers 90 days of no online news (I thought stress might contribute) 90 days of the carnivore diet 30 days of eating only at In’n’out burger Doing Starting Strength, a beginner’s powerlifting program Doing Simple & Sinister, a kettlebell training program 30 days of a low-fiber diet 30 days of a low-protein diet 30 days of a potato diet 30 days of drinking only distilled water (including for coffee) Eating only pemmican, a raw meat paste invented by Native Americans
  - exfatloss 4y ago
    Ha, thanks :) But I had that "willpower" for decades and didn't lose much weight. Certainly "pushing harder" didn't change anything. And then flicking one little switch made it super easy with no willpower involved. So I just don't see how the willpower is related to losing fat.
    - fishtacos 4y ago
      There is no little switch. Keto has been around millennia in various forms. Atkins' diet is well-known. That you took the time to test these various dietary restrictions and found no result until you landed on what is effectively a lopsided Atkins diet, isn't surprising. Do have to add - it's impressive that you went through all these documented efforts. In the name of science and all that.

JamesBarney 4y ago

You don't think it requires any willpower to restrict yourself and change how you eat? That might have been your experience but millions of other people claim otherwise. Either a million people are wrong, or you're an anomaly. I think the latter is more likely.

exfatloss 4y ago
I'm saying that if you rely on willpower, you will fail. Of course you should change how you eat if how you ate caused you health problems. But I'm advocating for making a conscious change that will then enable you to eat without having to use willpower. That's why "just eat less" is terrible advice and works for practically nobody. It's like finances. "Just save more" is terrible advice. Getting a degree or finding a high paying job or setting up automatic 401k contributions doesn't require willpower day-to-day, and has a much higher chance of success.
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  Ahh basically try to make meta decisions that limit the willpower needed. Like don't buy a bag of chips in the store which requires a little bit of willpower once vs having to have the same willpower success everyday. Yeah 100% agreement.
  - exfatloss 4y ago
    Right, make a clever decision in a bright moment. Don't rely on willpower day-to-day. General life strategy :) Not buying the bag of chips is an obvious example, as is buying a used car vs. leasing a new one. Picking a diet that doesn't make you overeat is another one, and I'm in the process of figuring out what that means for me :)
- lamontcg 4y ago
  > That's why "just eat less" is terrible advice and works for practically nobody. Saying "willpower doesn't work" is just as bad. I actually agree with what you are trying to say, but you're arguing it very poorly.