10 ms·

Man, food is so addictive and not like you can just stop eating it like you can quit drinking booze or quit smoking!

8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
What's unique about food is that unlike smoking, drugs or booze, a human will always have to go back to eating, it's essential for day-to-day life unlike Jameson, Marlboro and meth. If you have a healthy relationship with food then you're fine, otherwise every day you're faced with willpower checks that you might struggle to consistently pass.
- exfatloss 4y ago
  I don't think willpower has anything to do with it.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ManuelKiessling 4y ago
    How come that you think this?
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Ozempic and Wegovy. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/31/opinion/ozempic-weight-loss-drugs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/31/opinion/ozempic-weight-lo... https://archive.is/rnTGB https://archive.is/rnTGB https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/01/30/1152039799/ozempic-wegovy-weight-loss-drugs https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/01/30/1152039...
      - exfatloss 4y ago
        I wouldn't try these until they've been studied further: https://peterattiamd.com/the-downside-of-glp-1-receptor-agonists/ https://peterattiamd.com/the-downside-of-glp-1-receptor-agon...
        gruez 4y ago
        From the linked article: >Among these patients, lean mass accounted for approximately 39% of total weight loss – substantially higher than ideal. In a substudy of 178 patients from the SUSTAIN 8 trial on semaglutide as a diabetes treatment, the average proportion of lean mass loss was nearly identical at 40%, despite lower doses and less total weight loss than in the STEP 1 trial. [...] Or in other words, 60% of the weight loss was in fat. The article paints this as concerning, but doesn't provide justification why. Sure, it'd be better to have 0% lean body mass loss, but how does 40% stack compared to calorie deficit diets? The mechanism of action behind the drugs is to cause you to eat less, and if the side effects are consistent with eating less, I don't see why people should be extra concerned.
        exfatloss 4y ago
        Also from the article: > Though a certain amount of lean loss is inevitable with significant weight reduction (usually about 25% of total weight loss) The justification is provided: this is nearly double the lean body mass loss usually seen in drastic weight loss. Yes, 0% is impossible, but this is worryingly high. It might be OK in younger individuals who have a ton of fat mass to lose, and they might gain any lean body mass back. But in older individuals that are already having a hard time exercising, it's unlikely that lean body mass will ever come back. Makes me think these drugs should probably be a measure of last resort. Unless more studies defuse this.
      - sundvor 4y ago
        Those are outliers. For the rest of us there's discipline and sheer willpower, as well as smart energy management. Train too hard? My appetite goes nuts. Train not enough? The weight loss is muscle. It kind of never stops. (Speaking as someone fast approaching the big five oh, on the very upper end of the normal BMI and not enough muscle to sugar coat all the excess gut fat which somehow disappears when clothed thanks to an above average height yet is still very much a risk factor.)
        kaba0 4y ago
        BMI can be misleading sometimes, more than normal muscle mass for example is not really accounted for — if you have the chance have a look at your body fat percentage.
    - exfatloss 4y ago
      Cause I just lost 48lbs without using any willpower: https://exfatloss.substack.com/p/losing-43lbs-in-144-days-on-ex150-diet https://exfatloss.substack.com/p/losing-43lbs-in-144-days-on...
      - plaguuuuuu 4y ago
        The amount of willpower I'd need to stick to a diet consisting primarily of whipped cream and butter is pretty immense my dude. It's far easier for me to just do caloric restriction. Granted I wouldn't lose weight as quickly.
      - WillPostForFood 4y ago
        Give yourself some credit, you show a lot of evidence of willpower to try and execute things. If you are able to do 30 days of just about anything, you are better than most. ------- To emphasize: the real point is the meta-framework of experiments. Formulate a hypothesis, design a 30-day experiment, test it. I’ve probably done dozens of these over the years. Here are some examples from the last few years: 30 days of cold showers 90 days of no online news (I thought stress might contribute) 90 days of the carnivore diet 30 days of eating only at In’n’out burger Doing Starting Strength, a beginner’s powerlifting program Doing Simple & Sinister, a kettlebell training program 30 days of a low-fiber diet 30 days of a low-protein diet 30 days of a potato diet 30 days of drinking only distilled water (including for coffee) Eating only pemmican, a raw meat paste invented by Native Americans
        exfatloss 4y ago
        Ha, thanks :) But I had that "willpower" for decades and didn't lose much weight. Certainly "pushing harder" didn't change anything. And then flicking one little switch made it super easy with no willpower involved. So I just don't see how the willpower is related to losing fat.
        fishtacos 4y ago
        There is no little switch. Keto has been around millennia in various forms. Atkins' diet is well-known. That you took the time to test these various dietary restrictions and found no result until you landed on what is effectively a lopsided Atkins diet, isn't surprising. Do have to add - it's impressive that you went through all these documented efforts. In the name of science and all that.
  - JamesBarney 4y ago
    You don't think it requires any willpower to restrict yourself and change how you eat? That might have been your experience but millions of other people claim otherwise. Either a million people are wrong, or you're an anomaly. I think the latter is more likely.
    - exfatloss 4y ago
      I'm saying that if you rely on willpower, you will fail. Of course you should change how you eat if how you ate caused you health problems. But I'm advocating for making a conscious change that will then enable you to eat without having to use willpower. That's why "just eat less" is terrible advice and works for practically nobody. It's like finances. "Just save more" is terrible advice. Getting a degree or finding a high paying job or setting up automatic 401k contributions doesn't require willpower day-to-day, and has a much higher chance of success.
      - JamesBarney 4y ago
        Ahh basically try to make meta decisions that limit the willpower needed. Like don't buy a bag of chips in the store which requires a little bit of willpower once vs having to have the same willpower success everyday. Yeah 100% agreement.
        exfatloss 4y ago
        Right, make a clever decision in a bright moment. Don't rely on willpower day-to-day. General life strategy :) Not buying the bag of chips is an obvious example, as is buying a used car vs. leasing a new one. Picking a diet that doesn't make you overeat is another one, and I'm in the process of figuring out what that means for me :)
      - lamontcg 4y ago
        > That's why "just eat less" is terrible advice and works for practically nobody. Saying "willpower doesn't work" is just as bad. I actually agree with what you are trying to say, but you're arguing it very poorly.
nugget 4y ago
For me, carbohydrate consumption and appetite are massively correlated. When I reduce carbs below 30g/day, my appetite is naturally suppressed (or avoids over-stimulation). Food feels much less addictive. It's easier not to snack in the face of stress. Keto probably added 10+ years on to my life expectancy. YMMV.
- exfatloss 4y ago
  Cutting out carbs + protein worked even better for me: https://exfatloss.substack.com/p/losing-43lbs-in-144-days-on-ex150-diet https://exfatloss.substack.com/p/losing-43lbs-in-144-days-on...
- rdl 4y ago
  Same for me with eliminating carbs; combining keto + IF is pretty effective and I've lost about half of the weight from ATH to where I want to be through it. IF is nice because it provides an "all or nothing, but not forever" restriction, and keto is a reasonable framework for food selectivity. Keeping enough protein for not losing muscle and overall ideal; I wish I'd done this when I was 16 and not when I was in my 40s.
  - remote_phone 4y ago
    I’m in my 50s and I will tell you that your metabolism changes. I was on strict low-carb and I hit a wall in terms of weight that I couldn’t get past. When I did low carb in my 30s I easily lost about 40 lbs but this time around I maxed out at 20 lb weight loss and couldn’t push it further.
    - exfatloss 4y ago
      Have you tried cutting out PUFAs as well? Check out the Croissant Diet: https://fireinabottle.net/introducing-the-croissant-diet/ https://fireinabottle.net/introducing-the-croissant-diet/ No guarantee that it'll work (I haven't tried myself) but seems like a thing that could help you.
outside1234 4y ago
I don't try to adjust my food intake. Instead I adjust my exercise upwards if I gain a few pounds.
- exfatloss 4y ago
  This has also been proven to not work for people who are already obese.
- vkazanov 4y ago
  This approach his its limits. I used to run, climb, do boxing... eat whatever i felt like eating. But traumas do accumulate. 10 km a day becomes impossible. Joints, spine, heart - everything has limits. Counting calories isn't that hard and it works by the very definition of energy.
  - exfatloss 4y ago
    > Counting calories isn't that hard and it works by the very definition of energy. It doesn't "work" unless your definition of "work" is "lost a few pounds of water weight over a few weeks." Certainly does not work when going from obese to normal weight.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      As per your blog, your test is n=1. Besides, if people can really accurately count their calorie intakes and won’t overeat what they use up, then it is thermodynamically impossible not to lose weight. It is really hard to do in practice, especially for longer periods of time, but the theory behind is sound and straightforward.
      - exfatloss 4y ago
        This is the experience of practically everyone who's ever tried to lose weight, not just me. You think we had an obesity epidemic that's growing if counting calories really worked? > Besides, if people can really accurately count their calorie intakes and won’t overeat what they use up, then it is thermodynamically impossible not to lose weight. This is false. The body is a self-regulating system. You eat less, the body can just burn less. You eat more, the body can burn more. What you eat and what you do also plays a huge role.
paulpauper 4y ago
Yeah for sure. I kicked a 3 cig a day habit overnight. I was still eating junk food even into into a diet. Never really stopped, but I lost a lot of weight through aggressive portion control.
readonthegoapp 4y ago
they say ozempic curbs appetite for booze. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- giaour 4y ago
  And Buproprion is used (among other things!) both as a weight loss drug and smoking cessation aide.

What's unique about food is that unlike smoking, drugs or booze, a human will always have to go back to eating, it's essential for day-to-day life unlike Jameson, Marlboro and meth. If you have a healthy relationship with food then you're fine, otherwise every day you're faced with willpower checks that you might struggle to consistently pass.

exfatloss 4y ago
I don't think willpower has anything to do with it.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ManuelKiessling 4y ago
  How come that you think this?
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Ozempic and Wegovy. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/31/opinion/ozempic-weight-loss-drugs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/31/opinion/ozempic-weight-lo... https://archive.is/rnTGB https://archive.is/rnTGB https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/01/30/1152039799/ozempic-wegovy-weight-loss-drugs https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/01/30/1152039...
    - exfatloss 4y ago
      I wouldn't try these until they've been studied further: https://peterattiamd.com/the-downside-of-glp-1-receptor-agonists/ https://peterattiamd.com/the-downside-of-glp-1-receptor-agon...
      - gruez 4y ago
        From the linked article: >Among these patients, lean mass accounted for approximately 39% of total weight loss – substantially higher than ideal. In a substudy of 178 patients from the SUSTAIN 8 trial on semaglutide as a diabetes treatment, the average proportion of lean mass loss was nearly identical at 40%, despite lower doses and less total weight loss than in the STEP 1 trial. [...] Or in other words, 60% of the weight loss was in fat. The article paints this as concerning, but doesn't provide justification why. Sure, it'd be better to have 0% lean body mass loss, but how does 40% stack compared to calorie deficit diets? The mechanism of action behind the drugs is to cause you to eat less, and if the side effects are consistent with eating less, I don't see why people should be extra concerned.
        exfatloss 4y ago
        Also from the article: > Though a certain amount of lean loss is inevitable with significant weight reduction (usually about 25% of total weight loss) The justification is provided: this is nearly double the lean body mass loss usually seen in drastic weight loss. Yes, 0% is impossible, but this is worryingly high. It might be OK in younger individuals who have a ton of fat mass to lose, and they might gain any lean body mass back. But in older individuals that are already having a hard time exercising, it's unlikely that lean body mass will ever come back. Makes me think these drugs should probably be a measure of last resort. Unless more studies defuse this.
    - sundvor 4y ago
      Those are outliers. For the rest of us there's discipline and sheer willpower, as well as smart energy management. Train too hard? My appetite goes nuts. Train not enough? The weight loss is muscle. It kind of never stops. (Speaking as someone fast approaching the big five oh, on the very upper end of the normal BMI and not enough muscle to sugar coat all the excess gut fat which somehow disappears when clothed thanks to an above average height yet is still very much a risk factor.)
      - kaba0 4y ago
        BMI can be misleading sometimes, more than normal muscle mass for example is not really accounted for — if you have the chance have a look at your body fat percentage.
  - exfatloss 4y ago
    Cause I just lost 48lbs without using any willpower: https://exfatloss.substack.com/p/losing-43lbs-in-144-days-on-ex150-diet https://exfatloss.substack.com/p/losing-43lbs-in-144-days-on...
    - plaguuuuuu 4y ago
      The amount of willpower I'd need to stick to a diet consisting primarily of whipped cream and butter is pretty immense my dude. It's far easier for me to just do caloric restriction. Granted I wouldn't lose weight as quickly.
    - WillPostForFood 4y ago
      Give yourself some credit, you show a lot of evidence of willpower to try and execute things. If you are able to do 30 days of just about anything, you are better than most. ------- To emphasize: the real point is the meta-framework of experiments. Formulate a hypothesis, design a 30-day experiment, test it. I’ve probably done dozens of these over the years. Here are some examples from the last few years: 30 days of cold showers 90 days of no online news (I thought stress might contribute) 90 days of the carnivore diet 30 days of eating only at In’n’out burger Doing Starting Strength, a beginner’s powerlifting program Doing Simple & Sinister, a kettlebell training program 30 days of a low-fiber diet 30 days of a low-protein diet 30 days of a potato diet 30 days of drinking only distilled water (including for coffee) Eating only pemmican, a raw meat paste invented by Native Americans
      - exfatloss 4y ago
        Ha, thanks :) But I had that "willpower" for decades and didn't lose much weight. Certainly "pushing harder" didn't change anything. And then flicking one little switch made it super easy with no willpower involved. So I just don't see how the willpower is related to losing fat.
        fishtacos 4y ago
        There is no little switch. Keto has been around millennia in various forms. Atkins' diet is well-known. That you took the time to test these various dietary restrictions and found no result until you landed on what is effectively a lopsided Atkins diet, isn't surprising. Do have to add - it's impressive that you went through all these documented efforts. In the name of science and all that.
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  You don't think it requires any willpower to restrict yourself and change how you eat? That might have been your experience but millions of other people claim otherwise. Either a million people are wrong, or you're an anomaly. I think the latter is more likely.
  - exfatloss 4y ago
    I'm saying that if you rely on willpower, you will fail. Of course you should change how you eat if how you ate caused you health problems. But I'm advocating for making a conscious change that will then enable you to eat without having to use willpower. That's why "just eat less" is terrible advice and works for practically nobody. It's like finances. "Just save more" is terrible advice. Getting a degree or finding a high paying job or setting up automatic 401k contributions doesn't require willpower day-to-day, and has a much higher chance of success.
    - JamesBarney 4y ago
      Ahh basically try to make meta decisions that limit the willpower needed. Like don't buy a bag of chips in the store which requires a little bit of willpower once vs having to have the same willpower success everyday. Yeah 100% agreement.
      - exfatloss 4y ago
        Right, make a clever decision in a bright moment. Don't rely on willpower day-to-day. General life strategy :) Not buying the bag of chips is an obvious example, as is buying a used car vs. leasing a new one. Picking a diet that doesn't make you overeat is another one, and I'm in the process of figuring out what that means for me :)
    - lamontcg 4y ago
      > That's why "just eat less" is terrible advice and works for practically nobody. Saying "willpower doesn't work" is just as bad. I actually agree with what you are trying to say, but you're arguing it very poorly.

nugget 4y ago

For me, carbohydrate consumption and appetite are massively correlated. When I reduce carbs below 30g/day, my appetite is naturally suppressed (or avoids over-stimulation). Food feels much less addictive. It's easier not to snack in the face of stress. Keto probably added 10+ years on to my life expectancy. YMMV.

exfatloss 4y ago
Cutting out carbs + protein worked even better for me: https://exfatloss.substack.com/p/losing-43lbs-in-144-days-on-ex150-diet https://exfatloss.substack.com/p/losing-43lbs-in-144-days-on...
rdl 4y ago
Same for me with eliminating carbs; combining keto + IF is pretty effective and I've lost about half of the weight from ATH to where I want to be through it. IF is nice because it provides an "all or nothing, but not forever" restriction, and keto is a reasonable framework for food selectivity. Keeping enough protein for not losing muscle and overall ideal; I wish I'd done this when I was 16 and not when I was in my 40s.
- remote_phone 4y ago
  I’m in my 50s and I will tell you that your metabolism changes. I was on strict low-carb and I hit a wall in terms of weight that I couldn’t get past. When I did low carb in my 30s I easily lost about 40 lbs but this time around I maxed out at 20 lb weight loss and couldn’t push it further.
  - exfatloss 4y ago
    Have you tried cutting out PUFAs as well? Check out the Croissant Diet: https://fireinabottle.net/introducing-the-croissant-diet/ https://fireinabottle.net/introducing-the-croissant-diet/ No guarantee that it'll work (I haven't tried myself) but seems like a thing that could help you.

outside1234 4y ago

I don't try to adjust my food intake. Instead I adjust my exercise upwards if I gain a few pounds.

exfatloss 4y ago
This has also been proven to not work for people who are already obese.
vkazanov 4y ago
This approach his its limits. I used to run, climb, do boxing... eat whatever i felt like eating. But traumas do accumulate. 10 km a day becomes impossible. Joints, spine, heart - everything has limits. Counting calories isn't that hard and it works by the very definition of energy.
- exfatloss 4y ago
  > Counting calories isn't that hard and it works by the very definition of energy. It doesn't "work" unless your definition of "work" is "lost a few pounds of water weight over a few weeks." Certainly does not work when going from obese to normal weight.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    As per your blog, your test is n=1. Besides, if people can really accurately count their calorie intakes and won’t overeat what they use up, then it is thermodynamically impossible not to lose weight. It is really hard to do in practice, especially for longer periods of time, but the theory behind is sound and straightforward.
    - exfatloss 4y ago
      This is the experience of practically everyone who's ever tried to lose weight, not just me. You think we had an obesity epidemic that's growing if counting calories really worked? > Besides, if people can really accurately count their calorie intakes and won’t overeat what they use up, then it is thermodynamically impossible not to lose weight. This is false. The body is a self-regulating system. You eat less, the body can just burn less. You eat more, the body can burn more. What you eat and what you do also plays a huge role.

paulpauper 4y ago

Yeah for sure. I kicked a 3 cig a day habit overnight. I was still eating junk food even into into a diet. Never really stopped, but I lost a lot of weight through aggressive portion control.

readonthegoapp 4y ago

they say ozempic curbs appetite for booze. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

giaour 4y ago
And Buproprion is used (among other things!) both as a weight loss drug and smoking cessation aide.