3 ms·

> Yeah, what do people who actually live in China know about their own country. Is it still illegal to know things in China? I read stories all the time about

> Yeah, what do people who actually live in China know about their own country. Is it still illegal to know things in China? I read stories all the time about government enforced censorship in China, so I think it's fair to assume that people in China know less about the country than interested parties outside the country, right? And while I am just a white American dude, thankfully one who can find China on a map. The tone here screams needless hostility.

yogthos 4y ago
There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject. I'm not aware of any country that doesn't have censorship in practice. I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd. People can certainly understand whether they are happy with their lives and whether their quality of life is improving or not. Given that vast majority of people in China claim this is the case, I'm going to go with their lived experience over your notions about what life in China is like. Frankly, the fact that people in US have been convinced that they know better what life in other countries is like than people living there do is a testament to the effectiveness of US propaganda.
- grayhatter 4y ago
  > There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject Interesting, can you cite any of these books? I don't believe they contradict my understand that censorship in China is so drastically different from the US that the comparison becomes dishonest. > I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd. People can certainly understand whether they are happy with their lives and whether their quality of life is improving or not. I didn't claim this, because normally I'd agree with you. I don't think I understand their lives better than they do. If someone says they're happy with their life, and I don't suspect duress. I'm happy to believe them. My claim was, in part because it's so hard to get reliable information inside from China given the extreme government censorship; that the opinions from the population about the quality shouldn't be given the normal amount of weight you'd give opinions about the government from a country that has strong protections and freedoms for the press. At best, they're under informed, and at worse they're misinformed. If you disagree, and believe they're perfectly informed, can you explain why there's so many articles, information, and evidence showing the CCP attempting to coverup information and events?
  - yogthos 4y ago
    Here are just a couple of books documenting censorship and public opinion manipulation that happens in US https://archive.org/details/inventingrealit000pare https://archive.org/details/inventingrealit000pare https://archive.org/details/pdfy-NekqfnoWIEuYgdZl https://archive.org/details/pdfy-NekqfnoWIEuYgdZl >My claim was, in part because it's so hard to get reliable information inside from China given the extreme government censorship; that the opinions from the population about the quality shouldn't be given the normal amount of weight you'd give opinions about the government from a country that has strong protections and freedoms for the press. Then you surely will give weight to western sources, such as Harvard, saying this is the case? Here's a Harvard research center study of long-term public opinion survey showing that Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve of their government https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur... https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-that-china-is-more-democratic-than-the-united-states-russia-is-nearby-and-ukraine-is-at-the-bottom/ https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-tha... https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resilience-surveying-chinese-public-opinion-through-time https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resil... https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilified-abroad-popular-at-home-China-s-Communist-Party-at-100 https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilif... >If you disagree, and believe they're perfectly informed, can you explain why there's so many articles, information, and evidence showing the CCP attempting to coverup information and events? You seriously need me to explain to you why there ism assive propaganda in US against its peer competitor? The very fact that you can't even spell the name of the party, which is Communist Party of China (CPC) correctly says volumes. It's like if I insisted on calling your country ASU.
    - grayhatter 4y ago
      > You seriously need me to explain to you why there ism assive propaganda in US against its peer competitor? Yes, because you're not convincing anyone you're right. You're convincing people that you're kind of a dick. I have a large body of evidence claiming one thing, and the other side culminates in "just trust me bro". And because you're being such an asshole to both me and other commenters, I find it really hard to trust you, given I don't think you're operating in good faith. > The very fact that you can't even spell the name of the party, which is Communist Party of China (CPC) correctly says volumes. It's like if I insisted on calling your country ASU. No, it's not because my primary source of information is "western" explicitly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Communist_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Communist_Party which uses CCP, and because I'm on a predominantly "western" message board. I chose to use the more commonly understood initialism. Do you find ad hominem convincing yourself? Personally I find them either insulting, or distracting, and quite often distractions and red herrings are used to stifle conversations and the sharing of ideas. Which seems to be a theme across most of your comments here, you misunderstand a comment, and then bring up distractions from the topic quite a lot.
- mindslight 4y ago
  > I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd I'd say the exact opposite - those in a system become desensitized to its failings, and steeped in societal myths. One needs to be outside of that to have a frame of reference to compare anything to. Your argument seems to hinge upon material wealth. That can carry a lot of water for a system's failings, as it does in the US. But it's not particularly indicative of the shapes of power structures.
  - yogthos 4y ago
    What system failings are those precisely?

yogthos 4y ago

There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject. I'm not aware of any country that doesn't have censorship in practice. I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd. People can certainly understand whether they are happy with their lives and whether their quality of life is improving or not. Given that vast majority of people in China claim this is the case, I'm going to go with their lived experience over your notions about what life in China is like. Frankly, the fact that people in US have been convinced that they know better what life in other countries is like than people living there do is a testament to the effectiveness of US propaganda.

grayhatter 4y ago
> There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject Interesting, can you cite any of these books? I don't believe they contradict my understand that censorship in China is so drastically different from the US that the comparison becomes dishonest. > I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd. People can certainly understand whether they are happy with their lives and whether their quality of life is improving or not. I didn't claim this, because normally I'd agree with you. I don't think I understand their lives better than they do. If someone says they're happy with their life, and I don't suspect duress. I'm happy to believe them. My claim was, in part because it's so hard to get reliable information inside from China given the extreme government censorship; that the opinions from the population about the quality shouldn't be given the normal amount of weight you'd give opinions about the government from a country that has strong protections and freedoms for the press. At best, they're under informed, and at worse they're misinformed. If you disagree, and believe they're perfectly informed, can you explain why there's so many articles, information, and evidence showing the CCP attempting to coverup information and events?
- yogthos 4y ago
  Here are just a couple of books documenting censorship and public opinion manipulation that happens in US https://archive.org/details/inventingrealit000pare https://archive.org/details/inventingrealit000pare https://archive.org/details/pdfy-NekqfnoWIEuYgdZl https://archive.org/details/pdfy-NekqfnoWIEuYgdZl >My claim was, in part because it's so hard to get reliable information inside from China given the extreme government censorship; that the opinions from the population about the quality shouldn't be given the normal amount of weight you'd give opinions about the government from a country that has strong protections and freedoms for the press. Then you surely will give weight to western sources, such as Harvard, saying this is the case? Here's a Harvard research center study of long-term public opinion survey showing that Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve of their government https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur... https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-that-china-is-more-democratic-than-the-united-states-russia-is-nearby-and-ukraine-is-at-the-bottom/ https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-tha... https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resilience-surveying-chinese-public-opinion-through-time https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resil... https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilified-abroad-popular-at-home-China-s-Communist-Party-at-100 https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilif... >If you disagree, and believe they're perfectly informed, can you explain why there's so many articles, information, and evidence showing the CCP attempting to coverup information and events? You seriously need me to explain to you why there ism assive propaganda in US against its peer competitor? The very fact that you can't even spell the name of the party, which is Communist Party of China (CPC) correctly says volumes. It's like if I insisted on calling your country ASU.
  - grayhatter 4y ago
    > You seriously need me to explain to you why there ism assive propaganda in US against its peer competitor? Yes, because you're not convincing anyone you're right. You're convincing people that you're kind of a dick. I have a large body of evidence claiming one thing, and the other side culminates in "just trust me bro". And because you're being such an asshole to both me and other commenters, I find it really hard to trust you, given I don't think you're operating in good faith. > The very fact that you can't even spell the name of the party, which is Communist Party of China (CPC) correctly says volumes. It's like if I insisted on calling your country ASU. No, it's not because my primary source of information is "western" explicitly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Communist_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Communist_Party which uses CCP, and because I'm on a predominantly "western" message board. I chose to use the more commonly understood initialism. Do you find ad hominem convincing yourself? Personally I find them either insulting, or distracting, and quite often distractions and red herrings are used to stifle conversations and the sharing of ideas. Which seems to be a theme across most of your comments here, you misunderstand a comment, and then bring up distractions from the topic quite a lot.
mindslight 4y ago
> I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd I'd say the exact opposite - those in a system become desensitized to its failings, and steeped in societal myths. One needs to be outside of that to have a frame of reference to compare anything to. Your argument seems to hinge upon material wealth. That can carry a lot of water for a system's failings, as it does in the US. But it's not particularly indicative of the shapes of power structures.
- yogthos 4y ago
  What system failings are those precisely?