6 ms·

Tell HN: macOS is degrading fast, and GNU/Linux is now better for most uses

27 points by ralmidani 4y ago

I used MacOS as my personal daily driver for a while, and in my 1st and 3rd industry jobs, and I used to think running GNU/Linux on my daily driver was more hassle than it was worth (see this post from ~5 years ago): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17239471 YMMV, but in my experience the quality of MacOS is degrading fast, and GNU/Linux keeps getting better driver support and has become so much more stable __and__ usable (for work, I run Fedora with GNOME on a Framework laptop, and my personal Framework runs Ubuntu for now) since that post 5 years ago that I'm increasingly seeing MacOS as an annoying OS which, among devs, should only be used if developing for Apple platforms. GNU/Linux doesn't just have feature parity, in so many way it's __better__ than MacOS. For example: - I don't have to make any changes to my dev environment after updating Fedora, whereas XCode command-line tools usually need to be updated manually to get new installs of Erlang & Elixir to pass the compilation stage. - 2x pixel scaling is so atrocious, it literally hurts my eyes on MacOS (at least on my x86 Mac Mini from 2020), while it works perfectly on Fedora. - On MacOS, if I want to completely terminate a program, I have to right click on its icon in the dock and then select quit. On Fedora (and every combination of distribution and desktop env I've tried), clicking the close icon actually terminates the program (imagine that), and no more processes are running unless there's still another window running the same program. It seems like GNU/Linux follows the Principle of Least Astonishment while Apple does not. GNU/Linux in general, and Framework in particular, still need to improve battery reliability and power management. In just about every other way, Apple (with its tightly integrated supply chain and platform) is being upstaged by a disparate network of developers, suppliers, and hardware vendors, none of whom can easily bend the others to their will.

pram 4y ago
You used macOS for 5 years and never once used cmd+Q?
gjvc 4y ago
10.6 aka "Snow Leopard" (2009) was the peak
zaynetro 4y ago
X vs Y is always very opinionated and I too myself want to express my frustration/gratitude towards a single option. Sadly, life is life and a single option will not suit everybody. In my professional experience I have switched between Linux and Mac a couple of times. 2015-2017 Linux Yay, happy to work for real. 2017-2019 Linux I love Linux. So many things I can configure, i3 is the best. 2019-2021 Mac Ok, got tired of various configuration options and my set up wasn't perfect still... 2021-2022 Linux Grr! Mac is so limiting. Just look at Fedora Silverblue and its immutable file system. ThinkPad's keyboard is the best! 2023- Mac Macbook M2 works really great out of the box. Hibernation works :whoa: For me I've noticed that I do get tired of a single OS after a while and want to try something new. Switching to a different OS gives me a clean slate for experimenting.
jlpcsl 4y ago
Could not agree more. Have to use mac os at work from time to time to test compatibility and it is quite terrible compared to a proper GNU/Linux desktop, specially compared to KDE Plasma. And through the years it has just gotten worse and more dumbed and closed down, while on the othe hand GNU/Linux desktop have the opposite trend of constantly improving.
mattbillenstein 4y ago
Yeah, agreed - Thinkpad X1 Carbon and Ubuntu 22.04 LTS. The only thing I don't do is ever try to hibernate - I'm not even sure that doesn't work, I just turn it off when I need to pack it away.
Gnarl 4y ago
Yeah, my girlfriend's Mac died so I got her a HP EliteBook replacement (looks similar) and put Ubuntu on it. I dressed the GNOME UI dock as close to Mac icon layout as possible. She sat right down and started using it. A month later she asked: "am I running Linux"? Damn right, baby!
- waboremo 4y ago
  I suppose it's difficult to tell what OS one is on, when most people just use a full screen browser window anyways.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
devnullbrain 4y ago
On Mac I need to install iTerm2 to have a reasonable terminal environment but with that: - I need to use a workaround to avoid the title bar flashing without reason - The window sometimes just disappears and Mac window management isn't sophisticated enough for me to rescue it. More and more doesn't 'just work'.
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  Native terminal app is pretty decent for most things. That said, I also use iTerm2. I find it better and more fully featured. I especially love the tmux control codes integration, something I don't think a single terminal emulator on Linux has. I've been using macs for about 15 years and i have never seen the problems you describe. I'm curious how they are happening for you.
  - devnullbrain 4y ago
    Search 'Big Sur' in the iTerm2 Advanced tab in Preferences.
    - cassianoleal 4y ago
      Found the bug report related: https://gitlab.com/gnachman/iterm2/-/issues/9372 https://gitlab.com/gnachman/iterm2/-/issues/9372 2 things to note: - This bug has 12 +1s, which suggests it was never very widespread (I could be wrong); and - Big Sur was 2 major releases ago. Like I mentioned, I never saw this issue, and had never heard of it despite the fact that probably about half the people I work with use Macs, and I believe nearly all of them use iTerm2.
stock_toaster 4y ago
> On MacOS, if I want to completely terminate a program, I have to right click on its icon in the dock and then select quit. ⌘-q terminates a program, ⌘-w closes a tab/window > On Fedora (and every combination of distribution and desktop env I've tried), clicking the close icon actually terminates the program (imagine that), and no more processes are running unless there's still another window running the same program. It seems like GNU/Linux follows the Principle of Least Astonishment while Apple does not. This is just a different design choice. It has been this way for a long time on mac. Just because you aren't used to it, doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong.
- ralmidani 4y ago
  I like using keyboard shortcuts. It’s just that my 42 year old brain doesn’t have the ability to memorize so many of them. If Apple is going to give me a GUI, then that GUI shouldn’t behave in ways that surprise people who haven’t been using a Mac their entire lives. Side rant: why doesn’t iOS let me close all apps without swiping up on them individually? Seems like an actually user-hostile design choice. And I say that as someone who plans to never use Android again.
  - voltaireodactyl 4y ago
    A common tip for folks who don’t use mac much is to go into System Settings, Keyboard, and swap the Command and Control modifiers. Thereafter most common shortcuts are identical to windows muscle memory.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    They do not want you to swipe-close all apps, and used to very publicly ask people to stop doing that every year during iOS keynotes. They want you to trust iOS to swap apps in and out as needed for performance, and all you're doing by forcing the apps to close is ensuring slower startup next time you use them, since they'll be launched from scratch rather than restored from cache. So this is not a "missing feature," it is you using the system in a way they don't support. They won't likely add the feature you want, but you could consider leave the apps alone, and only swipe-closing them if you want privacy.
alexpetralia 4y ago
I use a Macbook at work and a Chromebook at home, and always prefer the Chromebook (which has Linux support)! (I used to use a PC, but after Windows XP, that fell to the bottom of the list.)
- 7e 4y ago
  I’m the opposite—a Mac, for me, is 10x what a Chromebook is.
catchnear4321 4y ago
Works on my machine.
Thristle 4y ago
Just close things with CMD+Q... the close button usually doesn't do anything on macos All the other points - 100% valid. And there are so many more
bityard 4y ago
I have to say, I installed Debian and KDE Plasma on both my work computer and my personal computer 6 months ago and have absolutely stunned at well they simply Just Work now. It boots fast. It's stable. I can tweak things. I haven't been this satisfied with my desktop experience since the day before GNOME 3 was released.
throwaway1777 4y ago
The new apple silicon is so good though for performance and battery life.
krrrh 4y ago
> On MacOS, if I want to completely terminate a program, I have to right click on its icon in the dock and then select quit. Cmd-Q ? Or even better cmd- tab-q-tab-q. Who has time to find the corners of a half dozen windows with a trackpad when they want to simply quit a program? I haven’t run Linux desktop for a while but the inconsistency in keyboard shortcuts was a drag, maybe it’s gotten better? One of the best parts of macOS is how consistent keyboard shortcuts are across the system, and how easy it is to customize them with the built-in preferences, or via karabiner-elements if you have the accessibility challenges of being a power user.
sonofhans 4y ago
You’re free to like what you choose, of course. I do want to talk about application & window management on MacOS. On Windows, and on desktop Linuxes that I’ve used, a running program is inseparable from its windows. E.g., if you open notepad.exe and then click the “Close” icon, notepad.exe shuts down. (This is true commonly but not always). If you open another document you will often get another window for notepad.exe. If you click the “Close” icon on the second window, the application will keep running, since it has the first window open still. MacOS does it differently. Most applications run separately from their windows. Open TextEdit.app and it stays open until you tell it to quit. You can have many or few windows open and the application will keep running. This plays better with another different in MacOS, which is that a running application controls the menu bar at the top of the screen. In Windows and Linux, those controls are specific to each window of each running application. So if you have 3 copies of notepad.exe running, you’ll see three menus for it, one in each window. In MacOS you’d see the TextEdit.app menu at the top of the screen, and the editing windows floating on the desktop. Switching between these two metaphors is hard, regardless of which direction you go. There isn’t an objectively right way to do it. Changing from one metaphor to the other wouldn’t be as simple as changing the function of “Close,” though — many features and patterns are inextricably linked to this choice. Lastly, FWIW, there are multiple ways to close an application on MacOS: using the Dock, as you describe; Command-Q almost always works, both from the application and from the task switcher (Command-Tab); Menu > Quit works. I personally hide the Dock, and use these other methods.
haunter 4y ago
I'm always curious why do people use HN as a blog, or generally just for incredibly opinionated pieces Use whatever you like! Many of us could pretty much write the same piece about Windows or Free/OpenBSD but ultimately it doesn't matter. Though it's strange that you couldn't figure out the Cmd-Q to close apps in 5 years ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  Especially since the shortcut is printed on the menu item. Don't know where the menu item is? Open help and type "quit". It's not easy to be more discoverable than that.
lynndotpy 4y ago
I have to agree with this (except that I don't have experience with Framework.) I've used Linux since my teenage years, and I was recently interested in trying a MacOS. I was always told it was just like Linux with a better UX. But this is not the case. It's frustrating how much MacOS is missing. - Multiple desktops, but you can't move windows between them with keyboard shortcuts. - Animations: Baked-in, long, IO-blocking, and they can't be disabled. - Terminal: You need MacOS-specific terminal commands for various basic settings (such as adding a spacer to the dock). The default terminal is pretty bad, and you will want to download a third party one. - Window management: Extremely basic and even worse than Windows. (No keyboard shortcuts, no tiling, etc.) - Child windows (e.g. to open or save files) will *move the parent window* if (1) it's wider or taller than the parent window and (2) the parent window is near an edge. This is very funny but only the first time. - Running applications downloaded from the internet is obtuse and time-consuming. - Even the newer laptops with "fixed keyboards" have problems. (Every 2021 MBP I've tried has a bad capslock key. This is supposed to be by design.) This is ignoring all the usual MacOS complaints. (XCode, no native Docker, bad coreutils, no volume sliders, no games, long system updates, can't use the machine while it updates, telemetry, OS speed tied to speed of telemetry calls, features are obtuse/obfuscated and lack affordances for discovery, bricking from user-accessible settings, etc.) The benefit that the newest Apple laptops had are its battery, but that was ruined with the latest major update to MacOS. I really really regret buying a MacOS laptop. (I have a 14" 2021 MBP.) I was naive, curious, and ignorant. A cautionary tale for anyone else who's happy in Linux land!
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  > I was always told it was just like Linux with a better UX. That is definitely not true. Whoever told you that has probably never used either one of the systems. > Multiple desktops, but you can't move windows between them with keyboard shortcuts. I use Rectangle app. It's free and open source, and has this functionality. > Animations: Baked-in, long, IO-blocking, and they can't be disabled. I agree with this one. Having an option to at least accelerate them to near-instant would be nice. Disabling them altogether as an option would likely be desirable to many. It would also be better if the focus transitioned fully as soon as the animation started, not ended. > Window management: Extremely basic and even worse than Windows. (No keyboard shortcuts, no tiling, etc.) Rectangle app again. Keyboard shortcuts, mouse-based tiling, the works. > Child windows (e.g. to open or save files) will move the parent window if (1) it's wider or taller than the parent window and (2) the parent window is near an edge. This is very funny but only the first This is just complaining about nothing. The parent window returns to the original position once the child window is closed. > Running applications downloaded from the internet is obtuse and time-consuming. Sorry, what? > Even the newer laptops with "fixed keyboards" have problems. (Every 2021 MBP I've tried has a bad capslock key. This is supposed to be by design.) If you mean the tiny delay between pressing it and activating the lock, it's definitely not a broken thing. Arguably, it should be an accessibility option, either opt-in or opt-out. As it stands, there's no option. Most people tend to like it though as it absolutely kills the possibility of accidentally switching it on. > This is ignoring all the usual MacOS complaints. (XCode How is XCode a macOS complaint? It's an IDE, not part of the OS. I never have it installed on my computers as I don't write mac or iDevice apps. > no native Docker The only OS that has native Docker is Linux because Docker just packs Linux features (namespaces, cgroups) in a more user-friendly package. macOS has pretty much the same Docker experience as Windows does. If you don't want Docker desktop, colima IMO provides an even better experience. > bad coreutils coreutils is part of GNU. macOS is based on FreeBSD. What are you even complaining about? > no volume sliders If you mean per-app slider, fair point. Otherwise I don't know what you mean. > no games Seriously? Yeah, as it stands, Mac computers are not gaming devices. That said, there are many games that run on it. Perhaps not the ones you want to play. > long system updates Fair. It seems to be getting better though, and it's much superior to Windows. I've also never had an upgrade break my computer in ways that took hours to fix like I always had on Linux (before I migrated to Mac, I was an exclusive Linux user for many years. I still run it on my servers and a couple laptops). > can't use the machine while it updates Fair. > telemetry Fair. > OS speed tied to speed of telemetry calls My telemetry calls must be really speedy then, even when every other network call is stuck on treackle. > features are obtuse/obfuscated and lack affordances for discovery I'm not even sure what you mean by that. > bricking from user-accessible settings Never seen or heard of that one, but sounds horrible. > The benefit that the newest Apple laptops had are its battery, but that was ruined with the latest major update to MacOS. I'm typing this on an M2 Pro that's been on for about 4h. It's up-to-date and has 69% battery left. > I really really regret buying a MacOS laptop. That's fair. To each their own. > I was naive, curious, and ignorant. That's fine. Curiosity and ignorance go hand-in-hand. Naïveté is not really an issue, and sometimes is a great driver of discoveries. > A cautionary tale for anyone else who's happy in Linux land! Also fair, but I was very happy in Linux land. When I bought my first MacBook, I just wanted it for the hardware. The first thing I did was install Linux on it. After a while I decided to dual-boot OS X, mostly influenced by some of my smartest friends and colleagues, many of which also pretty big on Linux. It did take me a while to get used to it. I had to let go of many behaviours, customisation options, etc. It was a little painful for a couple months. After that, I was fine and really enjoying the freedom to not think about OS breakages. I could just close the lid and put the computer in my bag, and I could trust that everything would be as I left them when I opened it again. I stopped spending every available second on another customisation or optimisation. I started focusing more and better at the task at hand. An anecdote to counter your anecdotal cautionary tale. :)
Someone 4y ago
So, let’s take your opinion/claim that those are worse behaviors for granted. Even then, how do they support your claim that MacOS is _degrading_, let alone _degrading_fast_? I’m not aware that it has behaved better in the past for any of the behaviors you mention since 1984.
maxxk 4y ago
Maybe it's me personally, but with M1 / M2 Macs the quality of a product (hardware + software) is far ahead of anything I could get with GNU/Linux, unfortunately. macOS quality isn't as great as it was, but (from my most recent "coming home to M1 Mac" after 4 years on GNU/Linux) sound settings with various configurations including microphones, AirPods, external and internal speakers do work, and OS "automagically" remembers settings for each combination. External displays with different DPI just work (and, again OS does remember all display settings). AirDrop and AirPlay, Keychain and Notes sync (with OCR search) etc just work, not even speaking about famous Mac "instant DHCP". And, as a bonus, kernel upgrades don't randomly break GPU or WiFi drivers. So, it's really great it works for you, but, sadly, for me a lot of things on macOS "just work", both essential and unessential, while in GNU/Linux many essential things "just won't work", even considering its much better developer experience.
steponlego 4y ago
Linux is getting taken over by megacorps - OpenBSD is so so much better.
- ChatGTP 4y ago
  Sorry, what?
  - steponlego 4y ago
    Did I stutter?
sshine 4y ago
I'd love to agree with this. My heart is with Linux. But nah. I run Linux and MacOS for work and privately. For "I want zero configuration, just give me a default work environment!" Ubuntu and MacOS are both acceptable, but MacOS is both slightly nicer and degrades less over time, i.e. the amount of sketchy behavior the operating system does after it's been installed for a while increases faster with Ubuntu, in my experience. For "I want a highly customized work environment", you do get a better end product with Linux, although you can customize MacOS very decently, too. But it comes at the cost of sinking countless hours into your setup. That's why I still use Linux, because I can get exactly the setup that I want. Except really good battery management and hardware support. I only sometimes get suspend, and I can sometimes play games on Steam, depending on the mood of the distro, how long it's been on my computer, and how much I sacrificed to the gods. For software development with a persistent power supply, Linux friggin' rocks. With a good enough laptop, the battery usage probably isn't a problem at all. For "I want really good integration with my phone", you just don't have anything that looks like MacOS'es integration with iPhone. Sorry. I have a lot of quality-of-life experiences with MacOS that are entirely possible to set up with Linux (e.g. syncing on many levels), but I never got around to setting them up on Linux, and I just got them all-inclusive on Apple's platform.
- ChatGTP 4y ago
  Ubuntu is the worst distribution I’ve used in a long time. Try Fedora, I run it for work, same laptop for 3 years now, it’s absolutely perfect, very few issues. We use Ubuntu at work for some things, even as a sever, I have no respect for it. I have no idea why it’s popular. Marketing ?
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    Ubuntu came to be in a time when RPM-based distros suffered badly from dependency hell. Ubuntu was built on a very reputable and stable Debian base and made it more desktop-friendly by installing certain drivers by default. For a while Ubuntu was the most likely distribution to have everything or most things work out of the box on many systems. On top of that, yes, marketing.
theonething 4y ago
I'm (fairly happily) trapped in the Apple ecosystem (computer, phone, tablet, watch etc) and can't/am not willing to get out.
brailsafe 4y ago
As everyone else said, CMD-Q to quit or CMD Option Esc to force quit anything. Aside from the new Settings screen, I feel as good about macOS as I ever have. Linux I'd prefer for predictable servers, but they're different things. Mac still lets me get shit done as productively as I let myself do it. I'm sure Linux can be that way too, but I'm not looking for an alternative. Windows still feels like garbage. The few things I'd really like to see in the next pro laptops, are LTE built-in, and more interesting colours than silver and grey. A forest green 14" Macbook Pro with 96gb (or 128gb of ram), the best processors and battery life I can buy, and zero noise, is beyond perfect for development for my needs.
alpaca128 4y ago
Meanwhile I switched from Linux to an M2 Macbook Air and am quite satisfied with it. The hardware is everything I wanted for years and while the OS could be better it at least isn't Windows 11. Yes, Linux is still better in my opinion. But my main problem is the difficulty of finding an actually Linux compatible laptop combined with the consequences of making the wrong choice. Mac OS isn't that bad, works out of the box and if the Asahi project keeps up that pace I might be able to use that laptop beyond the support period.
simonblack 4y ago
Never a Windows user, I have been a Unix/Linux user since 1991. (Unix from 1991 to 2001, Linux from 2001-now) Around 2006, I bought a MacBook. I REALLY, REALLY wanted that MacBook to convince me that a Mac was 'the best thing since sliced bread'. Over the next year or so, I really tried to absorb the MacOS lifestyle. I was an abject failure. There were so many things about MacOS that just didn't mesh with any Unix-like OS that I had ever seen. (And MacOS is really BSD under the bonnet, with an overlay of Apple's Windows Manager.) And don't get me started on Apple's DRM bullshit, where they deliberately make software and file-structures more obfuscated than necessary. Let's just say that a year or two in the MacOS world made me horribly disillusioned about Apple and its philosophy. It was such a relief to get back to the Linux/Unix world of freedom.
beej71 4y ago
Everyone has their own requirements, of course. I can, however, give my kernel panic count over the last year: Lenovo Y50-70 Arch Linux: 0 MBP Intel: 0 MBP M1: 2 :) They're all fine, IMO. I figure sooner or later Apple will stop supporting this Intel MBP and I'll stick Linux on it. If the keyboard doesn't get a bit of dust in it, anyway. ;-P

27 points by ralmidani 4y ago

pram 4y ago

You used macOS for 5 years and never once used cmd+Q?

gjvc 4y ago

10.6 aka "Snow Leopard" (2009) was the peak

zaynetro 4y ago

X vs Y is always very opinionated and I too myself want to express my frustration/gratitude towards a single option. Sadly, life is life and a single option will not suit everybody. In my professional experience I have switched between Linux and Mac a couple of times. 2015-2017 Linux Yay, happy to work for real. 2017-2019 Linux I love Linux. So many things I can configure, i3 is the best. 2019-2021 Mac Ok, got tired of various configuration options and my set up wasn't perfect still... 2021-2022 Linux Grr! Mac is so limiting. Just look at Fedora Silverblue and its immutable file system. ThinkPad's keyboard is the best! 2023- Mac Macbook M2 works really great out of the box. Hibernation works :whoa: For me I've noticed that I do get tired of a single OS after a while and want to try something new. Switching to a different OS gives me a clean slate for experimenting.

jlpcsl 4y ago

Could not agree more. Have to use mac os at work from time to time to test compatibility and it is quite terrible compared to a proper GNU/Linux desktop, specially compared to KDE Plasma. And through the years it has just gotten worse and more dumbed and closed down, while on the othe hand GNU/Linux desktop have the opposite trend of constantly improving.

mattbillenstein 4y ago

Yeah, agreed - Thinkpad X1 Carbon and Ubuntu 22.04 LTS. The only thing I don't do is ever try to hibernate - I'm not even sure that doesn't work, I just turn it off when I need to pack it away.

Gnarl 4y ago

Yeah, my girlfriend's Mac died so I got her a HP EliteBook replacement (looks similar) and put Ubuntu on it. I dressed the GNOME UI dock as close to Mac icon layout as possible. She sat right down and started using it. A month later she asked: "am I running Linux"? Damn right, baby!

waboremo 4y ago
I suppose it's difficult to tell what OS one is on, when most people just use a full screen browser window anyways.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

devnullbrain 4y ago

On Mac I need to install iTerm2 to have a reasonable terminal environment but with that: - I need to use a workaround to avoid the title bar flashing without reason - The window sometimes just disappears and Mac window management isn't sophisticated enough for me to rescue it. More and more doesn't 'just work'.

cassianoleal 4y ago
Native terminal app is pretty decent for most things. That said, I also use iTerm2. I find it better and more fully featured. I especially love the tmux control codes integration, something I don't think a single terminal emulator on Linux has. I've been using macs for about 15 years and i have never seen the problems you describe. I'm curious how they are happening for you.
- devnullbrain 4y ago
  Search 'Big Sur' in the iTerm2 Advanced tab in Preferences.
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
    Found the bug report related: https://gitlab.com/gnachman/iterm2/-/issues/9372 https://gitlab.com/gnachman/iterm2/-/issues/9372 2 things to note: - This bug has 12 +1s, which suggests it was never very widespread (I could be wrong); and - Big Sur was 2 major releases ago. Like I mentioned, I never saw this issue, and had never heard of it despite the fact that probably about half the people I work with use Macs, and I believe nearly all of them use iTerm2.

stock_toaster 4y ago

> On MacOS, if I want to completely terminate a program, I have to right click on its icon in the dock and then select quit. ⌘-q terminates a program, ⌘-w closes a tab/window > On Fedora (and every combination of distribution and desktop env I've tried), clicking the close icon actually terminates the program (imagine that), and no more processes are running unless there's still another window running the same program. It seems like GNU/Linux follows the Principle of Least Astonishment while Apple does not. This is just a different design choice. It has been this way for a long time on mac. Just because you aren't used to it, doesn't mean it is necessarily wrong.

ralmidani 4y ago
I like using keyboard shortcuts. It’s just that my 42 year old brain doesn’t have the ability to memorize so many of them. If Apple is going to give me a GUI, then that GUI shouldn’t behave in ways that surprise people who haven’t been using a Mac their entire lives. Side rant: why doesn’t iOS let me close all apps without swiping up on them individually? Seems like an actually user-hostile design choice. And I say that as someone who plans to never use Android again.
- voltaireodactyl 4y ago
  A common tip for folks who don’t use mac much is to go into System Settings, Keyboard, and swap the Command and Control modifiers. Thereafter most common shortcuts are identical to windows muscle memory.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  They do not want you to swipe-close all apps, and used to very publicly ask people to stop doing that every year during iOS keynotes. They want you to trust iOS to swap apps in and out as needed for performance, and all you're doing by forcing the apps to close is ensuring slower startup next time you use them, since they'll be launched from scratch rather than restored from cache. So this is not a "missing feature," it is you using the system in a way they don't support. They won't likely add the feature you want, but you could consider leave the apps alone, and only swipe-closing them if you want privacy.

alexpetralia 4y ago

I use a Macbook at work and a Chromebook at home, and always prefer the Chromebook (which has Linux support)! (I used to use a PC, but after Windows XP, that fell to the bottom of the list.)

7e 4y ago
I’m the opposite—a Mac, for me, is 10x what a Chromebook is.

catchnear4321 4y ago

Works on my machine.

Thristle 4y ago

Just close things with CMD+Q... the close button usually doesn't do anything on macos All the other points - 100% valid. And there are so many more

bityard 4y ago

I have to say, I installed Debian and KDE Plasma on both my work computer and my personal computer 6 months ago and have absolutely stunned at well they simply Just Work now. It boots fast. It's stable. I can tweak things. I haven't been this satisfied with my desktop experience since the day before GNOME 3 was released.

throwaway1777 4y ago

The new apple silicon is so good though for performance and battery life.

krrrh 4y ago

> On MacOS, if I want to completely terminate a program, I have to right click on its icon in the dock and then select quit. Cmd-Q ? Or even better cmd- tab-q-tab-q. Who has time to find the corners of a half dozen windows with a trackpad when they want to simply quit a program? I haven’t run Linux desktop for a while but the inconsistency in keyboard shortcuts was a drag, maybe it’s gotten better? One of the best parts of macOS is how consistent keyboard shortcuts are across the system, and how easy it is to customize them with the built-in preferences, or via karabiner-elements if you have the accessibility challenges of being a power user.

sonofhans 4y ago

You’re free to like what you choose, of course. I do want to talk about application & window management on MacOS. On Windows, and on desktop Linuxes that I’ve used, a running program is inseparable from its windows. E.g., if you open notepad.exe and then click the “Close” icon, notepad.exe shuts down. (This is true commonly but not always). If you open another document you will often get another window for notepad.exe. If you click the “Close” icon on the second window, the application will keep running, since it has the first window open still. MacOS does it differently. Most applications run separately from their windows. Open TextEdit.app and it stays open until you tell it to quit. You can have many or few windows open and the application will keep running. This plays better with another different in MacOS, which is that a running application controls the menu bar at the top of the screen. In Windows and Linux, those controls are specific to each window of each running application. So if you have 3 copies of notepad.exe running, you’ll see three menus for it, one in each window. In MacOS you’d see the TextEdit.app menu at the top of the screen, and the editing windows floating on the desktop. Switching between these two metaphors is hard, regardless of which direction you go. There isn’t an objectively right way to do it. Changing from one metaphor to the other wouldn’t be as simple as changing the function of “Close,” though — many features and patterns are inextricably linked to this choice. Lastly, FWIW, there are multiple ways to close an application on MacOS: using the Dock, as you describe; Command-Q almost always works, both from the application and from the task switcher (Command-Tab); Menu > Quit works. I personally hide the Dock, and use these other methods.

haunter 4y ago

I'm always curious why do people use HN as a blog, or generally just for incredibly opinionated pieces Use whatever you like! Many of us could pretty much write the same piece about Windows or Free/OpenBSD but ultimately it doesn't matter. Though it's strange that you couldn't figure out the Cmd-Q to close apps in 5 years ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

cassianoleal 4y ago
Especially since the shortcut is printed on the menu item. Don't know where the menu item is? Open help and type "quit". It's not easy to be more discoverable than that.

lynndotpy 4y ago

I have to agree with this (except that I don't have experience with Framework.) I've used Linux since my teenage years, and I was recently interested in trying a MacOS. I was always told it was just like Linux with a better UX. But this is not the case. It's frustrating how much MacOS is missing. - Multiple desktops, but you can't move windows between them with keyboard shortcuts. - Animations: Baked-in, long, IO-blocking, and they can't be disabled. - Terminal: You need MacOS-specific terminal commands for various basic settings (such as adding a spacer to the dock). The default terminal is pretty bad, and you will want to download a third party one. - Window management: Extremely basic and even worse than Windows. (No keyboard shortcuts, no tiling, etc.) - Child windows (e.g. to open or save files) will *move the parent window* if (1) it's wider or taller than the parent window and (2) the parent window is near an edge. This is very funny but only the first time. - Running applications downloaded from the internet is obtuse and time-consuming. - Even the newer laptops with "fixed keyboards" have problems. (Every 2021 MBP I've tried has a bad capslock key. This is supposed to be by design.) This is ignoring all the usual MacOS complaints. (XCode, no native Docker, bad coreutils, no volume sliders, no games, long system updates, can't use the machine while it updates, telemetry, OS speed tied to speed of telemetry calls, features are obtuse/obfuscated and lack affordances for discovery, bricking from user-accessible settings, etc.) The benefit that the newest Apple laptops had are its battery, but that was ruined with the latest major update to MacOS. I really really regret buying a MacOS laptop. (I have a 14" 2021 MBP.) I was naive, curious, and ignorant. A cautionary tale for anyone else who's happy in Linux land!

cassianoleal 4y ago
> I was always told it was just like Linux with a better UX. That is definitely not true. Whoever told you that has probably never used either one of the systems. > Multiple desktops, but you can't move windows between them with keyboard shortcuts. I use Rectangle app. It's free and open source, and has this functionality. > Animations: Baked-in, long, IO-blocking, and they can't be disabled. I agree with this one. Having an option to at least accelerate them to near-instant would be nice. Disabling them altogether as an option would likely be desirable to many. It would also be better if the focus transitioned fully as soon as the animation started, not ended. > Window management: Extremely basic and even worse than Windows. (No keyboard shortcuts, no tiling, etc.) Rectangle app again. Keyboard shortcuts, mouse-based tiling, the works. > Child windows (e.g. to open or save files) will move the parent window if (1) it's wider or taller than the parent window and (2) the parent window is near an edge. This is very funny but only the first This is just complaining about nothing. The parent window returns to the original position once the child window is closed. > Running applications downloaded from the internet is obtuse and time-consuming. Sorry, what? > Even the newer laptops with "fixed keyboards" have problems. (Every 2021 MBP I've tried has a bad capslock key. This is supposed to be by design.) If you mean the tiny delay between pressing it and activating the lock, it's definitely not a broken thing. Arguably, it should be an accessibility option, either opt-in or opt-out. As it stands, there's no option. Most people tend to like it though as it absolutely kills the possibility of accidentally switching it on. > This is ignoring all the usual MacOS complaints. (XCode How is XCode a macOS complaint? It's an IDE, not part of the OS. I never have it installed on my computers as I don't write mac or iDevice apps. > no native Docker The only OS that has native Docker is Linux because Docker just packs Linux features (namespaces, cgroups) in a more user-friendly package. macOS has pretty much the same Docker experience as Windows does. If you don't want Docker desktop, colima IMO provides an even better experience. > bad coreutils coreutils is part of GNU. macOS is based on FreeBSD. What are you even complaining about? > no volume sliders If you mean per-app slider, fair point. Otherwise I don't know what you mean. > no games Seriously? Yeah, as it stands, Mac computers are not gaming devices. That said, there are many games that run on it. Perhaps not the ones you want to play. > long system updates Fair. It seems to be getting better though, and it's much superior to Windows. I've also never had an upgrade break my computer in ways that took hours to fix like I always had on Linux (before I migrated to Mac, I was an exclusive Linux user for many years. I still run it on my servers and a couple laptops). > can't use the machine while it updates Fair. > telemetry Fair. > OS speed tied to speed of telemetry calls My telemetry calls must be really speedy then, even when every other network call is stuck on treackle. > features are obtuse/obfuscated and lack affordances for discovery I'm not even sure what you mean by that. > bricking from user-accessible settings Never seen or heard of that one, but sounds horrible. > The benefit that the newest Apple laptops had are its battery, but that was ruined with the latest major update to MacOS. I'm typing this on an M2 Pro that's been on for about 4h. It's up-to-date and has 69% battery left. > I really really regret buying a MacOS laptop. That's fair. To each their own. > I was naive, curious, and ignorant. That's fine. Curiosity and ignorance go hand-in-hand. Naïveté is not really an issue, and sometimes is a great driver of discoveries. > A cautionary tale for anyone else who's happy in Linux land! Also fair, but I was very happy in Linux land. When I bought my first MacBook, I just wanted it for the hardware. The first thing I did was install Linux on it. After a while I decided to dual-boot OS X, mostly influenced by some of my smartest friends and colleagues, many of which also pretty big on Linux. It did take me a while to get used to it. I had to let go of many behaviours, customisation options, etc. It was a little painful for a couple months. After that, I was fine and really enjoying the freedom to not think about OS breakages. I could just close the lid and put the computer in my bag, and I could trust that everything would be as I left them when I opened it again. I stopped spending every available second on another customisation or optimisation. I started focusing more and better at the task at hand. An anecdote to counter your anecdotal cautionary tale. :)

Someone 4y ago

So, let’s take your opinion/claim that those are worse behaviors for granted. Even then, how do they support your claim that MacOS is _degrading_, let alone _degrading_fast_? I’m not aware that it has behaved better in the past for any of the behaviors you mention since 1984.

maxxk 4y ago

Maybe it's me personally, but with M1 / M2 Macs the quality of a product (hardware + software) is far ahead of anything I could get with GNU/Linux, unfortunately. macOS quality isn't as great as it was, but (from my most recent "coming home to M1 Mac" after 4 years on GNU/Linux) sound settings with various configurations including microphones, AirPods, external and internal speakers do work, and OS "automagically" remembers settings for each combination. External displays with different DPI just work (and, again OS does remember all display settings). AirDrop and AirPlay, Keychain and Notes sync (with OCR search) etc just work, not even speaking about famous Mac "instant DHCP". And, as a bonus, kernel upgrades don't randomly break GPU or WiFi drivers. So, it's really great it works for you, but, sadly, for me a lot of things on macOS "just work", both essential and unessential, while in GNU/Linux many essential things "just won't work", even considering its much better developer experience.

steponlego 4y ago

Linux is getting taken over by megacorps - OpenBSD is so so much better.

ChatGTP 4y ago
Sorry, what?
- steponlego 4y ago
  Did I stutter?

sshine 4y ago

I'd love to agree with this. My heart is with Linux. But nah. I run Linux and MacOS for work and privately. For "I want zero configuration, just give me a default work environment!" Ubuntu and MacOS are both acceptable, but MacOS is both slightly nicer and degrades less over time, i.e. the amount of sketchy behavior the operating system does after it's been installed for a while increases faster with Ubuntu, in my experience. For "I want a highly customized work environment", you do get a better end product with Linux, although you can customize MacOS very decently, too. But it comes at the cost of sinking countless hours into your setup. That's why I still use Linux, because I can get exactly the setup that I want. Except really good battery management and hardware support. I only sometimes get suspend, and I can sometimes play games on Steam, depending on the mood of the distro, how long it's been on my computer, and how much I sacrificed to the gods. For software development with a persistent power supply, Linux friggin' rocks. With a good enough laptop, the battery usage probably isn't a problem at all. For "I want really good integration with my phone", you just don't have anything that looks like MacOS'es integration with iPhone. Sorry. I have a lot of quality-of-life experiences with MacOS that are entirely possible to set up with Linux (e.g. syncing on many levels), but I never got around to setting them up on Linux, and I just got them all-inclusive on Apple's platform.

ChatGTP 4y ago
Ubuntu is the worst distribution I’ve used in a long time. Try Fedora, I run it for work, same laptop for 3 years now, it’s absolutely perfect, very few issues. We use Ubuntu at work for some things, even as a sever, I have no respect for it. I have no idea why it’s popular. Marketing ?
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  Ubuntu came to be in a time when RPM-based distros suffered badly from dependency hell. Ubuntu was built on a very reputable and stable Debian base and made it more desktop-friendly by installing certain drivers by default. For a while Ubuntu was the most likely distribution to have everything or most things work out of the box on many systems. On top of that, yes, marketing.

theonething 4y ago

I'm (fairly happily) trapped in the Apple ecosystem (computer, phone, tablet, watch etc) and can't/am not willing to get out.

brailsafe 4y ago

As everyone else said, CMD-Q to quit or CMD Option Esc to force quit anything. Aside from the new Settings screen, I feel as good about macOS as I ever have. Linux I'd prefer for predictable servers, but they're different things. Mac still lets me get shit done as productively as I let myself do it. I'm sure Linux can be that way too, but I'm not looking for an alternative. Windows still feels like garbage. The few things I'd really like to see in the next pro laptops, are LTE built-in, and more interesting colours than silver and grey. A forest green 14" Macbook Pro with 96gb (or 128gb of ram), the best processors and battery life I can buy, and zero noise, is beyond perfect for development for my needs.

alpaca128 4y ago

Meanwhile I switched from Linux to an M2 Macbook Air and am quite satisfied with it. The hardware is everything I wanted for years and while the OS could be better it at least isn't Windows 11. Yes, Linux is still better in my opinion. But my main problem is the difficulty of finding an actually Linux compatible laptop combined with the consequences of making the wrong choice. Mac OS isn't that bad, works out of the box and if the Asahi project keeps up that pace I might be able to use that laptop beyond the support period.

simonblack 4y ago

Never a Windows user, I have been a Unix/Linux user since 1991. (Unix from 1991 to 2001, Linux from 2001-now) Around 2006, I bought a MacBook. I REALLY, REALLY wanted that MacBook to convince me that a Mac was 'the best thing since sliced bread'. Over the next year or so, I really tried to absorb the MacOS lifestyle. I was an abject failure. There were so many things about MacOS that just didn't mesh with any Unix-like OS that I had ever seen. (And MacOS is really BSD under the bonnet, with an overlay of Apple's Windows Manager.) And don't get me started on Apple's DRM bullshit, where they deliberately make software and file-structures more obfuscated than necessary. Let's just say that a year or two in the MacOS world made me horribly disillusioned about Apple and its philosophy. It was such a relief to get back to the Linux/Unix world of freedom.

beej71 4y ago

Everyone has their own requirements, of course. I can, however, give my kernel panic count over the last year: Lenovo Y50-70 Arch Linux: 0 MBP Intel: 0 MBP M1: 2 :) They're all fine, IMO. I figure sooner or later Apple will stop supporting this Intel MBP and I'll stick Linux on it. If the keyboard doesn't get a bit of dust in it, anyway. ;-P