4 ms·

I would have never thought when I woke up this morning that someone would try to sell me "China is a democracy", but here we are I guess

yogthos 4y ago
Yeah, what do people who actually live in China know about their own country. Some white dude from America who couldn't find China on a map surely knows better. Peak chauvinism here my friend.
- grayhatter 4y ago
  > Yeah, what do people who actually live in China know about their own country. Is it still illegal to know things in China? I read stories all the time about government enforced censorship in China, so I think it's fair to assume that people in China know less about the country than interested parties outside the country, right? And while I am just a white American dude, thankfully one who can find China on a map. The tone here screams needless hostility.
  - yogthos 4y ago
    There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject. I'm not aware of any country that doesn't have censorship in practice. I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd. People can certainly understand whether they are happy with their lives and whether their quality of life is improving or not. Given that vast majority of people in China claim this is the case, I'm going to go with their lived experience over your notions about what life in China is like. Frankly, the fact that people in US have been convinced that they know better what life in other countries is like than people living there do is a testament to the effectiveness of US propaganda.
    - grayhatter 4y ago
      > There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject Interesting, can you cite any of these books? I don't believe they contradict my understand that censorship in China is so drastically different from the US that the comparison becomes dishonest. > I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd. People can certainly understand whether they are happy with their lives and whether their quality of life is improving or not. I didn't claim this, because normally I'd agree with you. I don't think I understand their lives better than they do. If someone says they're happy with their life, and I don't suspect duress. I'm happy to believe them. My claim was, in part because it's so hard to get reliable information inside from China given the extreme government censorship; that the opinions from the population about the quality shouldn't be given the normal amount of weight you'd give opinions about the government from a country that has strong protections and freedoms for the press. At best, they're under informed, and at worse they're misinformed. If you disagree, and believe they're perfectly informed, can you explain why there's so many articles, information, and evidence showing the CCP attempting to coverup information and events?
      - yogthos 4y ago
        Here are just a couple of books documenting censorship and public opinion manipulation that happens in US https://archive.org/details/inventingrealit000pare https://archive.org/details/inventingrealit000pare https://archive.org/details/pdfy-NekqfnoWIEuYgdZl https://archive.org/details/pdfy-NekqfnoWIEuYgdZl >My claim was, in part because it's so hard to get reliable information inside from China given the extreme government censorship; that the opinions from the population about the quality shouldn't be given the normal amount of weight you'd give opinions about the government from a country that has strong protections and freedoms for the press. Then you surely will give weight to western sources, such as Harvard, saying this is the case? Here's a Harvard research center study of long-term public opinion survey showing that Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve of their government https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur... https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-that-china-is-more-democratic-than-the-united-states-russia-is-nearby-and-ukraine-is-at-the-bottom/ https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-tha... https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resilience-surveying-chinese-public-opinion-through-time https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resil... https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilified-abroad-popular-at-home-China-s-Communist-Party-at-100 https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilif... >If you disagree, and believe they're perfectly informed, can you explain why there's so many articles, information, and evidence showing the CCP attempting to coverup information and events? You seriously need me to explain to you why there ism assive propaganda in US against its peer competitor? The very fact that you can't even spell the name of the party, which is Communist Party of China (CPC) correctly says volumes. It's like if I insisted on calling your country ASU.
- jszymborski 4y ago
  If you think the ad hominum is going to bully me into accepting something akin to saying the sky is green and polka dotted then I suggest you change tact.
  - yogthos 4y ago
    Please learn what ad hominem means if you're going to use it. Nowhere am I suggesting that your argument is wrong because of your character flaws. I've explained why it's wrong on its own merits.
    - jszymborski 4y ago
      I'm not going to argue with you beyond this last comment because you're clearly doing so in bad faith, but you were trying to invalidate my comment because I'm "some white dude who cant find China on a map". An ad hominem is "a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than addressing the substance of the argument itself." Your incorrect and baseless assertion that I can't find China on a map attacks me as a person, and not what I said. I'm also not American fyi. Now kindly never interact with me again.
      - yogthos 4y ago
        I was pointing out the absurdity of your claim that people living in a country would have worse understanding of how their own country works than an outsider. I'm sorry your porcelain ego was bruised in the process.
        jszymborski 4y ago
        Excuse me Dmitri but we live in the same country.
        yogthos 4y ago
        Yet, only one of us pretends to know what political system China has better than people living there.

yogthos 4y ago

Yeah, what do people who actually live in China know about their own country. Some white dude from America who couldn't find China on a map surely knows better. Peak chauvinism here my friend.

grayhatter 4y ago
> Yeah, what do people who actually live in China know about their own country. Is it still illegal to know things in China? I read stories all the time about government enforced censorship in China, so I think it's fair to assume that people in China know less about the country than interested parties outside the country, right? And while I am just a white American dude, thankfully one who can find China on a map. The tone here screams needless hostility.
- yogthos 4y ago
  There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject. I'm not aware of any country that doesn't have censorship in practice. I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd. People can certainly understand whether they are happy with their lives and whether their quality of life is improving or not. Given that vast majority of people in China claim this is the case, I'm going to go with their lived experience over your notions about what life in China is like. Frankly, the fact that people in US have been convinced that they know better what life in other countries is like than people living there do is a testament to the effectiveness of US propaganda.
  - grayhatter 4y ago
    > There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject Interesting, can you cite any of these books? I don't believe they contradict my understand that censorship in China is so drastically different from the US that the comparison becomes dishonest. > I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd. People can certainly understand whether they are happy with their lives and whether their quality of life is improving or not. I didn't claim this, because normally I'd agree with you. I don't think I understand their lives better than they do. If someone says they're happy with their life, and I don't suspect duress. I'm happy to believe them. My claim was, in part because it's so hard to get reliable information inside from China given the extreme government censorship; that the opinions from the population about the quality shouldn't be given the normal amount of weight you'd give opinions about the government from a country that has strong protections and freedoms for the press. At best, they're under informed, and at worse they're misinformed. If you disagree, and believe they're perfectly informed, can you explain why there's so many articles, information, and evidence showing the CCP attempting to coverup information and events?
    - yogthos 4y ago
      Here are just a couple of books documenting censorship and public opinion manipulation that happens in US https://archive.org/details/inventingrealit000pare https://archive.org/details/inventingrealit000pare https://archive.org/details/pdfy-NekqfnoWIEuYgdZl https://archive.org/details/pdfy-NekqfnoWIEuYgdZl >My claim was, in part because it's so hard to get reliable information inside from China given the extreme government censorship; that the opinions from the population about the quality shouldn't be given the normal amount of weight you'd give opinions about the government from a country that has strong protections and freedoms for the press. Then you surely will give weight to western sources, such as Harvard, saying this is the case? Here's a Harvard research center study of long-term public opinion survey showing that Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve of their government https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur... https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-that-china-is-more-democratic-than-the-united-states-russia-is-nearby-and-ukraine-is-at-the-bottom/ https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-tha... https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resilience-surveying-chinese-public-opinion-through-time https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resil... https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilified-abroad-popular-at-home-China-s-Communist-Party-at-100 https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilif... >If you disagree, and believe they're perfectly informed, can you explain why there's so many articles, information, and evidence showing the CCP attempting to coverup information and events? You seriously need me to explain to you why there ism assive propaganda in US against its peer competitor? The very fact that you can't even spell the name of the party, which is Communist Party of China (CPC) correctly says volumes. It's like if I insisted on calling your country ASU.
jszymborski 4y ago
If you think the ad hominum is going to bully me into accepting something akin to saying the sky is green and polka dotted then I suggest you change tact.
- yogthos 4y ago
  Please learn what ad hominem means if you're going to use it. Nowhere am I suggesting that your argument is wrong because of your character flaws. I've explained why it's wrong on its own merits.
  - jszymborski 4y ago
    I'm not going to argue with you beyond this last comment because you're clearly doing so in bad faith, but you were trying to invalidate my comment because I'm "some white dude who cant find China on a map". An ad hominem is "a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than addressing the substance of the argument itself." Your incorrect and baseless assertion that I can't find China on a map attacks me as a person, and not what I said. I'm also not American fyi. Now kindly never interact with me again.
    - yogthos 4y ago
      I was pointing out the absurdity of your claim that people living in a country would have worse understanding of how their own country works than an outsider. I'm sorry your porcelain ego was bruised in the process.
      - jszymborski 4y ago
        Excuse me Dmitri but we live in the same country.
        yogthos 4y ago
        Yet, only one of us pretends to know what political system China has better than people living there.