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The article shows a graph of reasons why Japanese respondents were not having children. Roughly ~22% (can't tell due to the graphical nature) responded "Strugg

The article shows a graph of reasons why Japanese respondents were not having children. Roughly ~22% (can't tell due to the graphical nature) responded "Struggling to conceive". If you have a full FIFTH of your population willing but not able to have children, that's a lower hanging fruit to pick than somehow incentivising people who don't want to have children to change their mind. Fertility treatment is almost never brought up... as though it were taboo. That needs to change. The cost of an IVF cycle is somewhere around $20,000 USD. It's a huge cost to bear as an individual, it's a drop in the bucket for a government, and pays for itself many times over when the conceived child enters the workforce.

slaw 4y ago
Struggling to conceive is the result of starting too late in their life to have children. > A woman's fertility peaks lasts during the twenties and first half of thirties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_maternal_age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_maternal_age
- lostlogin 4y ago
  *for some, or even many. Not all.
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    Not all indeed. But across a population of millions, that has a serious impact. The US has 330 million people, and assuming a roughly equal split means you're looking at ~165 million Men and 165 million women. Assume that 1/3 of those 165 million women are able to have kids -- they're not too young, or post-menopausal. That's ~55 million women who can have kids. If there is even a tiny amount of issues with being over age, like that only impacts 1-4% of pregnant women, that's still anywhere form 0.5 to 2.2 million pregnancies. 2 million babies that are going to not happen, or have problems. There are US states with fewer people. Even a tiny variance here can impact large populations greatly.
- dumbotron 4y ago
  In the west, this is a big issue because feminism told women they can have it all. Turns out work doesn't leave much time for having kids. I think men actually have the same issue, though more because a lack of social safety net and capitalism drives them to produce rather than have balance in their lives. Something's off with society and incentives, but I'm at a loss for how to fix it.
  - swagasaurus-rex 4y ago
    Looks at costs. Poor nations have high fertility. Rich nations have low fertility despite having an abundance of everything people in poor nations would clamor for.
    - 1letterunixname 4y ago
      Rich nations tend to be poor in social connectedness and community. This means dating and maintaining friendships is more difficult in richer nations. Taking the context of dating in richer nations: If a dude from a rich country wanted to find a good wife, they would probably be better off looking in poorer nations where people aren't as likely to be spoiled, self-absorbed shits. Women in richer nations tend to want to screw around until they're 35-45 and then have an instant husband and kids. The last apartment complex I made the misfortune of selecting was bursting with mostly non-Ivy League office workers whose sole goals in life were sex, drugs, alcoholism, and imagining themselves as wealthy celebrity IG models. <unsolicited-dating-advice-department> I turned down this absolutely gorgeous woman mid-/early-20's who telegraphed she was self-centered, superficial, uncurious, and in a "maybe open" relationship, e.g., open to fooling around or an upgrade. The advice bit: A dude (or anyone really) can save themselves much grief by not monopolizing conversation and actively listen to the words and actions of others. In my calculus, it's cheaper and less painful to get an FWB if you need that but keep them at a distance. Most just aren't relationship material. Plus, I don't see how anyone in a richer country can find a reliable spouse when there is zero social context and zero accountability for behavior: dating apps only exacerbate the situation.
      - slaw 4y ago
lostlogin 4y ago
> The cost of an IVF cycle is somewhere around $20,000 USD. Is this the cost in Japan or is this the cost in the US? Not trying to provoke a discussion on US healthcare, but it’s less than half that cost here in New Zealand (and additional subsidies are available too). Healthcare tends to be relatively inexpensive in New Zealand relative to the US IVF may be cheaper in Japan? https://www.fertilityassociates.co.nz/treatment-costs-and-payment-options/costs/ https://www.fertilityassociates.co.nz/treatment-costs-and-pa... https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-high-cost-of-ivf/DXTXOVBNF7MU26OMALDGCI5R6Y/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-high-cost-of-ivf/DXTXOVBNF...
- julianlam 4y ago
  USA. This was a private cycle without insurance, plus cost of medications.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
908B64B197 4y ago
> The cost of an IVF cycle is somewhere around $20,000 USD. It's a huge cost to bear as an individual, it's a drop in the bucket for a government, and pays for itself many times over when the conceived child enters the workforce. This is extremely controversial in many circles, but subsidizing IVF for native born citizens, especially college educated, in countries like South Korea, Japan and the West has statistically better results than population increase through immigration. The effect are even more pronounced in countries with family-based immigrations, as often immigrants once settled will sponsor their aging parents into the country. Just giving incentives to these families to have a third child (bearing in mind it requires more space, larger vehicle and so on) would have outsized returns compared to the negligible costs. Note that I'm pro-immigration but it's about time we recognize it won't and can't solve all demographic problems. [0] [1] [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/03/07/the-massive-wage-gap-between-u-s-citizens-and-immigrants-infographic/?sh=440268ce3e65 https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/03/07/the-ma... [1] https://hbr.org/2020/05/research-the-immigrant-income-gap https://hbr.org/2020/05/research-the-immigrant-income-gap
onetimeusename 4y ago
IVF is not guaranteed to work, it could take multiple cycles each costing $20,000. Generally delaying finding a partner on the assumption that there is always IVF is also probably not a wise strategy.

slaw 4y ago

Struggling to conceive is the result of starting too late in their life to have children. > A woman's fertility peaks lasts during the twenties and first half of thirties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_maternal_age https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_maternal_age

lostlogin 4y ago
*for some, or even many. Not all.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  Not all indeed. But across a population of millions, that has a serious impact. The US has 330 million people, and assuming a roughly equal split means you're looking at ~165 million Men and 165 million women. Assume that 1/3 of those 165 million women are able to have kids -- they're not too young, or post-menopausal. That's ~55 million women who can have kids. If there is even a tiny amount of issues with being over age, like that only impacts 1-4% of pregnant women, that's still anywhere form 0.5 to 2.2 million pregnancies. 2 million babies that are going to not happen, or have problems. There are US states with fewer people. Even a tiny variance here can impact large populations greatly.
dumbotron 4y ago
In the west, this is a big issue because feminism told women they can have it all. Turns out work doesn't leave much time for having kids. I think men actually have the same issue, though more because a lack of social safety net and capitalism drives them to produce rather than have balance in their lives. Something's off with society and incentives, but I'm at a loss for how to fix it.
- swagasaurus-rex 4y ago
  Looks at costs. Poor nations have high fertility. Rich nations have low fertility despite having an abundance of everything people in poor nations would clamor for.
  - 1letterunixname 4y ago
    Rich nations tend to be poor in social connectedness and community. This means dating and maintaining friendships is more difficult in richer nations. Taking the context of dating in richer nations: If a dude from a rich country wanted to find a good wife, they would probably be better off looking in poorer nations where people aren't as likely to be spoiled, self-absorbed shits. Women in richer nations tend to want to screw around until they're 35-45 and then have an instant husband and kids. The last apartment complex I made the misfortune of selecting was bursting with mostly non-Ivy League office workers whose sole goals in life were sex, drugs, alcoholism, and imagining themselves as wealthy celebrity IG models. <unsolicited-dating-advice-department> I turned down this absolutely gorgeous woman mid-/early-20's who telegraphed she was self-centered, superficial, uncurious, and in a "maybe open" relationship, e.g., open to fooling around or an upgrade. The advice bit: A dude (or anyone really) can save themselves much grief by not monopolizing conversation and actively listen to the words and actions of others. In my calculus, it's cheaper and less painful to get an FWB if you need that but keep them at a distance. Most just aren't relationship material. Plus, I don't see how anyone in a richer country can find a reliable spouse when there is zero social context and zero accountability for behavior: dating apps only exacerbate the situation.
    - slaw 4y ago

lostlogin 4y ago

> The cost of an IVF cycle is somewhere around $20,000 USD. Is this the cost in Japan or is this the cost in the US? Not trying to provoke a discussion on US healthcare, but it’s less than half that cost here in New Zealand (and additional subsidies are available too). Healthcare tends to be relatively inexpensive in New Zealand relative to the US IVF may be cheaper in Japan? https://www.fertilityassociates.co.nz/treatment-costs-and-payment-options/costs/ https://www.fertilityassociates.co.nz/treatment-costs-and-pa... https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-high-cost-of-ivf/DXTXOVBNF7MU26OMALDGCI5R6Y/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-high-cost-of-ivf/DXTXOVBNF...

julianlam 4y ago
USA. This was a private cycle without insurance, plus cost of medications.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

908B64B197 4y ago

> The cost of an IVF cycle is somewhere around $20,000 USD. It's a huge cost to bear as an individual, it's a drop in the bucket for a government, and pays for itself many times over when the conceived child enters the workforce. This is extremely controversial in many circles, but subsidizing IVF for native born citizens, especially college educated, in countries like South Korea, Japan and the West has statistically better results than population increase through immigration. The effect are even more pronounced in countries with family-based immigrations, as often immigrants once settled will sponsor their aging parents into the country. Just giving incentives to these families to have a third child (bearing in mind it requires more space, larger vehicle and so on) would have outsized returns compared to the negligible costs. Note that I'm pro-immigration but it's about time we recognize it won't and can't solve all demographic problems. [0] [1] [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/03/07/the-massive-wage-gap-between-u-s-citizens-and-immigrants-infographic/?sh=440268ce3e65 https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/03/07/the-ma... [1] https://hbr.org/2020/05/research-the-immigrant-income-gap https://hbr.org/2020/05/research-the-immigrant-income-gap

onetimeusename 4y ago

IVF is not guaranteed to work, it could take multiple cycles each costing $20,000. Generally delaying finding a partner on the assumption that there is always IVF is also probably not a wise strategy.