6 ms·

So what would the opposite of this look like? What software could we make for renters that would increase their market power?

koromak 4y ago
I'm not sure theres an angle of attack here. People need to live somewhere, they don't get to argue the terms.
- wpietri 4y ago
  Leases can definitely be negotiable, even as an individual. I've done it! But I'm wondering what could be done if, like RealPage, we enable collaboration.
- toast0 4y ago
  Most people have options... A single person can rent a whole house, a 2 bedroom apartment, a 1 bedroom, a studio, or just a room out of a larger unit (or part of a shared room). And choose from a range of locations.
  - maxbond 4y ago
    A wealthy single person can muse between renting an entire house or subletting a single room, sure. For most people these options are worlds apart, and they wouldn't entertain both of them at once.
DoctorOW 4y ago
Realpage isn't the only software in that space. A software which finds the lowest possible rents and keeps Realpage as a last resort would be useful. It'd be difficult to monetize.
nvr219 4y ago
Develop software to help manage a tenants' union and software to help them find lawyers to help with collective bargaining.
- wpietri 4y ago
  Good points. I also wonder if we could take it further. Traditional tenants unions tend to deal with landlords only after somebody has signed up. What if we could get people together beforehand? E.g., we put together a rental listings platform that is free and comprehensive, so we have a lot of eyeballs for renters in the market. Could we organize them? Could we push for member discounts? Could we penalize landlords found to be using market manipulation software?
halfnormalform 4y ago
A network of illegal subletting.
maxbond 4y ago
I don't really think that's how software works. When software meshes with society, it greases the skids on existing power structures, with a few notable exceptions. So software is really good at enabling landlords to be more extractive, because landlords were already holding all the cards in the first place. You could write software that helps people, say, form a tenant's union, or lobby their legislators to create more protections, but it's the union or the government - other power structures - that are enhancing the power of tenants by directly opposing the power of this cartel. There's literally nothing that software could do to enhance their market power. The most you could do is help them to communicate about who the worst actors are, to try and level out the information asymmetry. But everyone still needs housing and there's still only so many units - someone is going to end up a tenant of the extractive landlords, whether we all know they're extractive or not. It's not like tenants of slumlords don't understand that that is their situation, it's poverty keeping them there, not a lack of market data.
- wpietri 4y ago
  > When software meshes with society, it greases the skids on existing power structures, Ah, so that's why YouTube content is mostly from the television companies that were powerful around the year 2000. And also why long distance telephone calls are the same price and most of the revenue is being captured by AT&T. And e-commerce, of course, is dominated by the same companies that ruled the malls in the 1990s.
  - maxbond 4y ago
    I did say there were exceptions. How about how traditional media can easily take all the money from your YouTube video if you have a 30s clip of copyrighted music, or end your YouTube career entirely with spurious copyright claims? How about surveillance technology enabling repressive regimes? Or how AirBNB enabled landlords to effectively charge higher rents by moving to short term rentals, and to run hotels while shirking regulations? Most of the examples you've listed are just changing hats (and others aren't power structures - long distance rates are not a power structure). Amazon wasn't around in the age of malls? Okay, sure, but is "malls/department stores, but really big, and online" really a different arrangement than before, or the same thing with more centralization? I view that as a consolidation of power among broadly the same group of people (American corporations & investors). This is a special case of, "technology solutions don't solve social problems." Technology improves and gets cheaper, no contest. That doesn't mean I can write software that will change my relationship to society anymore than I can write software that makes my computer levitate. If you're interested in proving me wrong, it seems to me that the counterargument wouldn't be an example of technological change, but a theoretical framework that would enable you to analyze a social problem or power structure and come up with a piece of software that would radically alter the outcome, with results better than chance. Obviously it wouldn't be reasonable for me to demand a fully developed theoretical framework from you in a casual conversation, so I'm happy to concede I may be mistaken if presented with a convincing seed or intuition that framework could be crystalized from. Alternatively, I'd absolutely concede I was wrong if presented with a convincing hypothetical piece of software that would radically change the relationship between tenants and landlords. You don't have to do any of that of course, I'm not trying to move goalposts, I'm trying to point out where my argument might be vulnerable in the interest of good faith, and because I'd love to be wrong about this.
TheBigSalad 4y ago
craigslist

koromak 4y ago

I'm not sure theres an angle of attack here. People need to live somewhere, they don't get to argue the terms.

wpietri 4y ago
Leases can definitely be negotiable, even as an individual. I've done it! But I'm wondering what could be done if, like RealPage, we enable collaboration.
toast0 4y ago
Most people have options... A single person can rent a whole house, a 2 bedroom apartment, a 1 bedroom, a studio, or just a room out of a larger unit (or part of a shared room). And choose from a range of locations.
- maxbond 4y ago
  A wealthy single person can muse between renting an entire house or subletting a single room, sure. For most people these options are worlds apart, and they wouldn't entertain both of them at once.

DoctorOW 4y ago

Realpage isn't the only software in that space. A software which finds the lowest possible rents and keeps Realpage as a last resort would be useful. It'd be difficult to monetize.

nvr219 4y ago

Develop software to help manage a tenants' union and software to help them find lawyers to help with collective bargaining.

wpietri 4y ago
Good points. I also wonder if we could take it further. Traditional tenants unions tend to deal with landlords only after somebody has signed up. What if we could get people together beforehand? E.g., we put together a rental listings platform that is free and comprehensive, so we have a lot of eyeballs for renters in the market. Could we organize them? Could we push for member discounts? Could we penalize landlords found to be using market manipulation software?

halfnormalform 4y ago

A network of illegal subletting.

maxbond 4y ago

I don't really think that's how software works. When software meshes with society, it greases the skids on existing power structures, with a few notable exceptions. So software is really good at enabling landlords to be more extractive, because landlords were already holding all the cards in the first place. You could write software that helps people, say, form a tenant's union, or lobby their legislators to create more protections, but it's the union or the government - other power structures - that are enhancing the power of tenants by directly opposing the power of this cartel. There's literally nothing that software could do to enhance their market power. The most you could do is help them to communicate about who the worst actors are, to try and level out the information asymmetry. But everyone still needs housing and there's still only so many units - someone is going to end up a tenant of the extractive landlords, whether we all know they're extractive or not. It's not like tenants of slumlords don't understand that that is their situation, it's poverty keeping them there, not a lack of market data.

wpietri 4y ago
> When software meshes with society, it greases the skids on existing power structures, Ah, so that's why YouTube content is mostly from the television companies that were powerful around the year 2000. And also why long distance telephone calls are the same price and most of the revenue is being captured by AT&T. And e-commerce, of course, is dominated by the same companies that ruled the malls in the 1990s.
- maxbond 4y ago
  I did say there were exceptions. How about how traditional media can easily take all the money from your YouTube video if you have a 30s clip of copyrighted music, or end your YouTube career entirely with spurious copyright claims? How about surveillance technology enabling repressive regimes? Or how AirBNB enabled landlords to effectively charge higher rents by moving to short term rentals, and to run hotels while shirking regulations? Most of the examples you've listed are just changing hats (and others aren't power structures - long distance rates are not a power structure). Amazon wasn't around in the age of malls? Okay, sure, but is "malls/department stores, but really big, and online" really a different arrangement than before, or the same thing with more centralization? I view that as a consolidation of power among broadly the same group of people (American corporations & investors). This is a special case of, "technology solutions don't solve social problems." Technology improves and gets cheaper, no contest. That doesn't mean I can write software that will change my relationship to society anymore than I can write software that makes my computer levitate. If you're interested in proving me wrong, it seems to me that the counterargument wouldn't be an example of technological change, but a theoretical framework that would enable you to analyze a social problem or power structure and come up with a piece of software that would radically alter the outcome, with results better than chance. Obviously it wouldn't be reasonable for me to demand a fully developed theoretical framework from you in a casual conversation, so I'm happy to concede I may be mistaken if presented with a convincing seed or intuition that framework could be crystalized from. Alternatively, I'd absolutely concede I was wrong if presented with a convincing hypothetical piece of software that would radically change the relationship between tenants and landlords. You don't have to do any of that of course, I'm not trying to move goalposts, I'm trying to point out where my argument might be vulnerable in the interest of good faith, and because I'd love to be wrong about this.

TheBigSalad 4y ago

craigslist