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Opened this article and immediately did a ctrl+f for 'immigration'. Not surprised to find only one hit toward the end where it is acknowledged as something that

Opened this article and immediately did a ctrl+f for 'immigration'. Not surprised to find only one hit toward the end where it is acknowledged as something that "might" be necessary. Of course no society is forced to welcome outsiders, and from my very detached anthropological view on the situation, it looks like the Japanese would rather die (slowly, and then perhaps very suddenly as the weight of their society can no longer be borne by the next generation) than change.

superdisk 4y ago
If you've ever seen how their society operates, you'd know there's a reason to preserve it rather than sell out and destroy it to appease the economy gods.
- thequadehunter 4y ago
  [flagged]
- rayiner 4y ago
  It’s amazing what you can do when everyone is socialized into a consistent set of values from childhood, and raised by parents who were socialized the same way. It’s a marvelous society—coming back from Tokyo to New York City is viscerally upsetting. It’s very sad to see the situation they’re in.
pixl97 4y ago
Immigration is a short term solution to a long term problem. Global fertility rate is only 2.4. Anything below 2.1 is a shrinking population. Yea, Japan could borrow population from China, but they will just be shrinking that population. Some countries in Africa still have significant positive fertility rates, but that is expected to drop dramatically if/as standards of living are increased. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/total-fertility-rate https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/total-fer...
shortcake27 4y ago
This is an extremely patriotic view. Why should people do something they don’t want to do just to ensure the survival of their society/country? The future of society is irrelevant to people who have already decided to be childfree and live the life they want today. “Oooh you’re so selfish” hell yeah I am. I get one life why would I waste it doing something I don’t want to do for a future I won’t even see? Edit: thanks for the downvotes without explanation. If you have a blanket expectation for other people to live their lives according to your ideologies (even if it makes them unhappy), perhaps take a second to consider what you’re asking of them.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  I too would like an explanation. It’s one thing if OP was talking up a lifestyle that was destructive to others or the environment but that doesn’t seem to be the angle. I don’t get the requirement for children. If you have ever paid attention to the comments a childless person (women in particular) receives, it’s not hard to see how they would end up a smidge jaded at society. Suggestions of blindly following a flag because it’s your colour and casting shade on patriotism may provoke some?
- ProjectArcturis 4y ago
  I downvoted you because you seem to have responded to the wrong post, or made a non sequitur. The parent post is about how the Japanese aren't even considering immigration as a solution; your response seems to argue that women are not obligated to have children.
  - shortcake27 4y ago
    My comment is in response to this statement from the parent: > it looks like the Japanese would rather die than change. Which, in context, was framed negatively, implying that Japanese people should be doing something they don’t want to do to avoid the collapse of their future society. If you read my comment with this frame in mind, it might make more sense.
    - 4y ago
nhchris 4y ago
> it looks like the Japanese would rather die (slowly, and then perhaps very suddenly as the weight of their society can no longer be borne by the next generation) than change. Countries that do have significant immigration rarely see an increase in the native fertility rate. So the Japanese will die regardless*, immigration just means someone else will also inhabit their country. In other words, you're offering a solution for the Japanese landmass, not the Japanese people. *Assuming current trends hold for centuries, which they surely won't.
- jacooper 4y ago
  > In other words, you're offering a solution for the Japanese landmass, not the Japanese people. Actually no, because these immigrants are not going to replace the entire Japanese population in one click, rather they will keep the country running and prevent the economic system from crashing in front of new Japanese kids. Basically supplement the needed kids to reach/exceed the replacement rate. I doubt that's going to be the majority of kids in the case of Japan.
  - nhchris 4y ago
    > immigrants are not going to replace the entire Japanese population in one click Same thing, just gradual instead of instant.
    - jacooper 4y ago
      Only if Japan is absolutely not having any new native kids, which isn't true. As I said the goal here is to supplement native kids with immigration, not replace them.
      - slaw 4y ago
        Do you think if you replace Japanese kid with some other kid it will magically become Japanese? It doesn't work in Germany.
throwawayacc5 4y ago
>Of course no society is forced to welcome outsiders Someone want to tell this lad about Western societies?
slaw 4y ago
I agree with @nhchris about immigration. > a solution for the Japanese landmass, not the Japanese people.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
wrp 4y ago
> ...the Japanese would rather die...than change. This is literally the case. Already in the 1980s, as Japan seemed headed toward becoming the world's dominant economic power, there was debate throughout Japanese society over how much of outside society Japan should be willing to absorb. Public opinion surveys found the populace wanted to preserve their society as it was, regardless of the economic consequences. I think it was in the 1990s that the government began to emphasize policies with that intent.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  I believe there was a documentary of sorts on the subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Igai_Zenbu_Chinbotsu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Igai_Zenbu_Chinbotsu
  - wrp 4y ago
    I thought I already saw that movie, but turns out I saw a remake[1] of an earlier movie[2] which that movie is a parody of. And...they are still getting mileage out of the idea[3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Japan [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submersion_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submersion_of_Japan [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Sinks:_People_of_Hope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Sinks:_People_of_Hope

superdisk 4y ago

If you've ever seen how their society operates, you'd know there's a reason to preserve it rather than sell out and destroy it to appease the economy gods.

thequadehunter 4y ago
[flagged]
rayiner 4y ago
It’s amazing what you can do when everyone is socialized into a consistent set of values from childhood, and raised by parents who were socialized the same way. It’s a marvelous society—coming back from Tokyo to New York City is viscerally upsetting. It’s very sad to see the situation they’re in.

pixl97 4y ago

Immigration is a short term solution to a long term problem. Global fertility rate is only 2.4. Anything below 2.1 is a shrinking population. Yea, Japan could borrow population from China, but they will just be shrinking that population. Some countries in Africa still have significant positive fertility rates, but that is expected to drop dramatically if/as standards of living are increased. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/total-fertility-rate https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/total-fer...

shortcake27 4y ago

This is an extremely patriotic view. Why should people do something they don’t want to do just to ensure the survival of their society/country? The future of society is irrelevant to people who have already decided to be childfree and live the life they want today. “Oooh you’re so selfish” hell yeah I am. I get one life why would I waste it doing something I don’t want to do for a future I won’t even see? Edit: thanks for the downvotes without explanation. If you have a blanket expectation for other people to live their lives according to your ideologies (even if it makes them unhappy), perhaps take a second to consider what you’re asking of them.

lostlogin 4y ago
I too would like an explanation. It’s one thing if OP was talking up a lifestyle that was destructive to others or the environment but that doesn’t seem to be the angle. I don’t get the requirement for children. If you have ever paid attention to the comments a childless person (women in particular) receives, it’s not hard to see how they would end up a smidge jaded at society. Suggestions of blindly following a flag because it’s your colour and casting shade on patriotism may provoke some?
ProjectArcturis 4y ago
I downvoted you because you seem to have responded to the wrong post, or made a non sequitur. The parent post is about how the Japanese aren't even considering immigration as a solution; your response seems to argue that women are not obligated to have children.
- shortcake27 4y ago
  My comment is in response to this statement from the parent: > it looks like the Japanese would rather die than change. Which, in context, was framed negatively, implying that Japanese people should be doing something they don’t want to do to avoid the collapse of their future society. If you read my comment with this frame in mind, it might make more sense.
  - 4y ago

nhchris 4y ago

> it looks like the Japanese would rather die (slowly, and then perhaps very suddenly as the weight of their society can no longer be borne by the next generation) than change. Countries that do have significant immigration rarely see an increase in the native fertility rate. So the Japanese will die regardless*, immigration just means someone else will also inhabit their country. In other words, you're offering a solution for the Japanese landmass, not the Japanese people. *Assuming current trends hold for centuries, which they surely won't.

jacooper 4y ago
> In other words, you're offering a solution for the Japanese landmass, not the Japanese people. Actually no, because these immigrants are not going to replace the entire Japanese population in one click, rather they will keep the country running and prevent the economic system from crashing in front of new Japanese kids. Basically supplement the needed kids to reach/exceed the replacement rate. I doubt that's going to be the majority of kids in the case of Japan.
- nhchris 4y ago
  > immigrants are not going to replace the entire Japanese population in one click Same thing, just gradual instead of instant.
  - jacooper 4y ago
    Only if Japan is absolutely not having any new native kids, which isn't true. As I said the goal here is to supplement native kids with immigration, not replace them.
    - slaw 4y ago
      Do you think if you replace Japanese kid with some other kid it will magically become Japanese? It doesn't work in Germany.

throwawayacc5 4y ago

>Of course no society is forced to welcome outsiders Someone want to tell this lad about Western societies?

slaw 4y ago

I agree with @nhchris about immigration. > a solution for the Japanese landmass, not the Japanese people.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

wrp 4y ago

> ...the Japanese would rather die...than change. This is literally the case. Already in the 1980s, as Japan seemed headed toward becoming the world's dominant economic power, there was debate throughout Japanese society over how much of outside society Japan should be willing to absorb. Public opinion surveys found the populace wanted to preserve their society as it was, regardless of the economic consequences. I think it was in the 1990s that the government began to emphasize policies with that intent.

selimthegrim 4y ago
I believe there was a documentary of sorts on the subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Igai_Zenbu_Chinbotsu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon_Igai_Zenbu_Chinbotsu
- wrp 4y ago
  I thought I already saw that movie, but turns out I saw a remake[1] of an earlier movie[2] which that movie is a parody of. And...they are still getting mileage out of the idea[3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Japan [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submersion_of_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submersion_of_Japan [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Sinks:_People_of_Hope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Sinks:_People_of_Hope