6 ms·

Doesn’t it also wear down engines more quickly?

SteveGerencser 4y ago
Ethanol is hard on all the soft bits in an engine. Rubber seals, diaphrams and so on. This is most dramatically seen in small engines that still use carburetors vs fuel injection.
- bluGill 4y ago
  That isn't the ethanol, that is the bad gasoline they mix in with the ethanol. When you buy E0 you get a better grade of gasoline that doesn't degrade the seals as much.
ravenstine 4y ago
No, it does not. This myth will not die hard. It's not a total myth per se, because it once was and sometimes still can be true for engine components that are simply not designed to handle ethanol. Such is not the case for pretty much every car built after the year 2000, roughly speaking. Every soft component in modern cars is designed to handle at least 10% ethanol, and effectively handle 100% ethanol. Corrosion is not really an issue either. The E85 you get from a pump is anhydrous, and the only way you'll get things like phase separation is if water is added deliberately. Ethanol doesn't pull water into gasoline. That's a myth. It's not a dessicant. This topic has been studied and it's simply not worth worrying about. Most cars on the road today, including those that aren't Flex Fuel, can run somewhere between E30 and E50 with no problems whatsoever. They can even run on E85 or E100 with either a software update or a piggyback device between the ECU and the fuel injectors, everything else remaining OEM. A car running on ethanol won't rust, fall apart, or blow up. If anything, ethanol can be better for engines given that it burns cooler and leaves way less carbon deposits. If a small engine today has seal failures or other issues, it's more likely to be the BTX (benzene, toluene, xylene) in gasoline and not the ethanol component. By the way, I'm speaking from direct experience. Not only have I converted small engines to run on ethanol, but I converted my 2013 Hyundai to be a flex fuel vehicle.
- danaris 4y ago
  Cars are not the only engines that use gasoline. Lawnmowers, weedwhackers (with added oil), and snowblowers, just to name three things in my garage that get E85 gas[1], all have some degree of problems with it. [1] Because that's what's available around me, not because that's what they should be getting.
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    Are any of your small engines designed or specifically converted to run on E85? Or are you using some lower ratio of ethanol to gas? In any case, small engines like those in lawnmowers are more of an effort to get running properly because, unless something's changed, they're not using an ECU or lambda sensors that would allow them to change the fuel trim (I'm probably speaking the obvious here so forgive me). They usually have to be re-jetted and maybe have their timing manually advanced.
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  The truth is it's complicated, because modern ICEs are complicated. > Most cars on the road today, including those that aren't Flex Fuel, can run somewhere between E30 and E50 with no problems whatsoever. That's straight up not true if we define "run" as "run as well as on E10" (granted I wish it was so I could save money on having to upgrade fueling for my cars). With the huge focus on MPG manufacturers generally aren't overbuilding their fueling systems: My 4 series will "run" on E30 with a stock tune, but logging AFRs and fuel rail pressure will show it's a dangerous game where the ECU is pulling a ton of timing as the fuel system struggles to keep up. Even with a tune, E20 is the maximum the fueling system can maintain without straight up running out of fueling and going into limp mode under heavy load - The more balanced truth is: ethanol for vehicles is a complicated topic, because modern ICEs are complicated beasts. Cars are designed to not break down on E10, but you will find some people argue (imo validly) that part of why car reliability dipped around the turn of the century was all the changes needed to support that kind of flexibility. Materials changed, engine management got more complicated (the fact that a car will run at all on E30 while clearly exceeding its fueling limits is a testament to that), etc. Ethanol can be better for sure, my car is a million times more enjoyable on a simple E20 blend than California's awful 91 blend, but at the end of the day, ethanol fuel is a bit of a farce (and again, I'm someone who'd have a terrible day if we actually stopped producing it). We're having the public pay to prop up our energy independence, and producing more emissions along the way. E85 prices don't reflect the difference in energy content, and the cost at the production side to make E10 blends. Gas would be cheaper for most people if we didn't have that requirement, hence why in times of economic need we've suspended the requirement. Ironically the people who I personally see benefit most from E85 are people who are well off enough to use it for a performance boost, or businesses taking advantage of how much artificially cheaper E85 is. Average people get the short end of the stick and few to none of the benefits.

Ethanol is hard on all the soft bits in an engine. Rubber seals, diaphrams and so on. This is most dramatically seen in small engines that still use carburetors vs fuel injection.

bluGill 4y ago
That isn't the ethanol, that is the bad gasoline they mix in with the ethanol. When you buy E0 you get a better grade of gasoline that doesn't degrade the seals as much.

ravenstine 4y ago

No, it does not. This myth will not die hard. It's not a total myth per se, because it once was and sometimes still can be true for engine components that are simply not designed to handle ethanol. Such is not the case for pretty much every car built after the year 2000, roughly speaking. Every soft component in modern cars is designed to handle at least 10% ethanol, and effectively handle 100% ethanol. Corrosion is not really an issue either. The E85 you get from a pump is anhydrous, and the only way you'll get things like phase separation is if water is added deliberately. Ethanol doesn't pull water into gasoline. That's a myth. It's not a dessicant. This topic has been studied and it's simply not worth worrying about. Most cars on the road today, including those that aren't Flex Fuel, can run somewhere between E30 and E50 with no problems whatsoever. They can even run on E85 or E100 with either a software update or a piggyback device between the ECU and the fuel injectors, everything else remaining OEM. A car running on ethanol won't rust, fall apart, or blow up. If anything, ethanol can be better for engines given that it burns cooler and leaves way less carbon deposits. If a small engine today has seal failures or other issues, it's more likely to be the BTX (benzene, toluene, xylene) in gasoline and not the ethanol component. By the way, I'm speaking from direct experience. Not only have I converted small engines to run on ethanol, but I converted my 2013 Hyundai to be a flex fuel vehicle.

danaris 4y ago
Cars are not the only engines that use gasoline. Lawnmowers, weedwhackers (with added oil), and snowblowers, just to name three things in my garage that get E85 gas[1], all have some degree of problems with it. [1] Because that's what's available around me, not because that's what they should be getting.
- ravenstine 4y ago
  Are any of your small engines designed or specifically converted to run on E85? Or are you using some lower ratio of ethanol to gas? In any case, small engines like those in lawnmowers are more of an effort to get running properly because, unless something's changed, they're not using an ECU or lambda sensors that would allow them to change the fuel trim (I'm probably speaking the obvious here so forgive me). They usually have to be re-jetted and maybe have their timing manually advanced.
BoorishBears 4y ago
The truth is it's complicated, because modern ICEs are complicated. > Most cars on the road today, including those that aren't Flex Fuel, can run somewhere between E30 and E50 with no problems whatsoever. That's straight up not true if we define "run" as "run as well as on E10" (granted I wish it was so I could save money on having to upgrade fueling for my cars). With the huge focus on MPG manufacturers generally aren't overbuilding their fueling systems: My 4 series will "run" on E30 with a stock tune, but logging AFRs and fuel rail pressure will show it's a dangerous game where the ECU is pulling a ton of timing as the fuel system struggles to keep up. Even with a tune, E20 is the maximum the fueling system can maintain without straight up running out of fueling and going into limp mode under heavy load - The more balanced truth is: ethanol for vehicles is a complicated topic, because modern ICEs are complicated beasts. Cars are designed to not break down on E10, but you will find some people argue (imo validly) that part of why car reliability dipped around the turn of the century was all the changes needed to support that kind of flexibility. Materials changed, engine management got more complicated (the fact that a car will run at all on E30 while clearly exceeding its fueling limits is a testament to that), etc. Ethanol can be better for sure, my car is a million times more enjoyable on a simple E20 blend than California's awful 91 blend, but at the end of the day, ethanol fuel is a bit of a farce (and again, I'm someone who'd have a terrible day if we actually stopped producing it). We're having the public pay to prop up our energy independence, and producing more emissions along the way. E85 prices don't reflect the difference in energy content, and the cost at the production side to make E10 blends. Gas would be cheaper for most people if we didn't have that requirement, hence why in times of economic need we've suspended the requirement. Ironically the people who I personally see benefit most from E85 are people who are well off enough to use it for a performance boost, or businesses taking advantage of how much artificially cheaper E85 is. Average people get the short end of the stick and few to none of the benefits.