4 ms·

In France, nobody asked for dumbed down versions of books, yet the publishers rewrote many of them removing subjunctive mood and past simple over the last 15yea

In France, nobody asked for dumbed down versions of books, yet the publishers rewrote many of them removing subjunctive mood and past simple over the last 15years. Worse, most kid, young teenager books are using a "simplified" grammar and vocabulary. Unless exception, one needs to reach translated books to get a normal grammar and vocabulary. All that to say I am actually surprised they went back on their announce.

yamtaddle 4y ago
The US version of this is the shift of juvenile and young-adult literature to the first-person POV, which has been so complete that kids coming up now find the third-person off-putting and difficult to read.
- endtime 4y ago
  Do you have a link where I can read more about this? I'm surprised kids find third-person difficult. My eight-year-olds and their friends are all starting the Harry Potter books, and I haven't heard this complaint.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    I've got some young advanced-reader kids (I think my eldest had read all but the last couple Harry Potter books before turning 7? And they did understand them, we quizzed 'em quite a bit to make sure) like that and the difference is we're handing them older books we're familiar with before they'd ordinarily get to them. Most kids track closer to normal graded reading level and will learn largely on newer, first-person books provided by teachers and librarians who are desperate to get kids to read anything.
- endominus 4y ago
  Do you have sources for this or do you have personal experience with people affected? I haven't heard this before and I'd like to know more. Sounds strange to me that considering that most of the popular books I know of targeting that age group are 3rd-person perspective.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Writer Twitter/Blogosphere/Youtube (including publishers) where this trend's been much-remarked-upon for years, know some writers and what publishers/agents are saying to them, know some English teachers and what they say about juvi-fic and YA trends and kids' reactions. If you want another sad-making observation, the teachers say teens are increasingly finding late-20th-century kids' books hard to read, because the language is too complex for them to follow—they're used to first-person with very simple sentences with redundancy for anything important (so it's harder to miss), and publishers are chasing simplicity/clarity-at-all-costs hard for fear of alienating any of their shrinking reader-base, which of course re-enforces that decline in ability to handle sentence- and paragraph-level complexity—even goes for "advanced" readers, I'm told. This part's been heading that way for a while, but I guess has gotten much worse fast over the last 5ish years. Basically, the genres that people still read (YA and romance) are trending hard toward first-person and very simple language. If you write in third publishers and agents will either tell you to switch outright, or you'll get a lot of "seems too distant and impersonal" and such, which is just them asking for first person without saying it. Some get through anyway, especially from authors who got their start 10+ years ago and have more sway, but first is strongly preferred.
    - cld8483 4y ago
      > the teachers say teens are increasingly finding late-20th-century kids' books hard to read That doesn't surprise me at all, I'm sure 20th century teachers found the same trend in 20th century students trying to read 19th century books. It's a shame, but it is what it is. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from this, except that we should do what we can to encourage kids to read the classics despite (or even because) of the difficulty.
      - yamtaddle 4y ago
        I think what's so shocking is these books are already so damn simple—they weren't considered challenging to their target age group even 20 years ago—but they're still too complex for 'em. It's like if there are two clauses they can't keep the first one in their head long enough to make sense of the whole thing, and god forbid you need to track an idea across multiple sentences. I have a suspicion that the trend dates back much earlier (60s? 70s?), and owes to de-emphasizing poetry in English classes, since reading poetry requires heavy tracking of complex context over long stretches of text, making even fairly-complex prose mostly seem easy by comparison. This may just be a continuation of that trend—kids' lit gradually getting simpler in response to declining literacy that is itself due to shifts in curriculum focus, causing an ongoing, further decline.
- cld8483 4y ago
  I haven't heard of this trend before, what you say seems very strange to me since I've always found first-person novels to be more than a bit odd and uncanny.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    We Olds tend to, since it used to be (not even that long ago) rarely-used, and almost never without some good motivation or framing narrative demanding it. Kids coming up find it normal.
- Foobar8568 4y ago
  Oh I never realized that shift but my daughter did it, she complained many times she hates first person books (basically books written with "I") .
leephillips 4y ago
I heard recently that some people predict that the subjunctive will disappear from current French in another decade or so. Could this be true? Seems bizarre.
- Foobar8568 4y ago
  Subjunctive mood has 4 different tenses, present, passé, imparfait and plus-que-parfait. The last one is rarely used and has been for at least 30years. It's also similar to the conditional past 2nd form. e.g. "(que) j'eusse fini". For the other tenses, they are still used in sentences like "il faut que je fasse" and similar. Now, if we are speaking about the past simple (passé simple), it could disappear within one more generation. For mine (born in the low 80s), it was already "deprecated" when speaking.

yamtaddle 4y ago

The US version of this is the shift of juvenile and young-adult literature to the first-person POV, which has been so complete that kids coming up now find the third-person off-putting and difficult to read.

endtime 4y ago
Do you have a link where I can read more about this? I'm surprised kids find third-person difficult. My eight-year-olds and their friends are all starting the Harry Potter books, and I haven't heard this complaint.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  I've got some young advanced-reader kids (I think my eldest had read all but the last couple Harry Potter books before turning 7? And they did understand them, we quizzed 'em quite a bit to make sure) like that and the difference is we're handing them older books we're familiar with before they'd ordinarily get to them. Most kids track closer to normal graded reading level and will learn largely on newer, first-person books provided by teachers and librarians who are desperate to get kids to read anything.
endominus 4y ago
Do you have sources for this or do you have personal experience with people affected? I haven't heard this before and I'd like to know more. Sounds strange to me that considering that most of the popular books I know of targeting that age group are 3rd-person perspective.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Writer Twitter/Blogosphere/Youtube (including publishers) where this trend's been much-remarked-upon for years, know some writers and what publishers/agents are saying to them, know some English teachers and what they say about juvi-fic and YA trends and kids' reactions. If you want another sad-making observation, the teachers say teens are increasingly finding late-20th-century kids' books hard to read, because the language is too complex for them to follow—they're used to first-person with very simple sentences with redundancy for anything important (so it's harder to miss), and publishers are chasing simplicity/clarity-at-all-costs hard for fear of alienating any of their shrinking reader-base, which of course re-enforces that decline in ability to handle sentence- and paragraph-level complexity—even goes for "advanced" readers, I'm told. This part's been heading that way for a while, but I guess has gotten much worse fast over the last 5ish years. Basically, the genres that people still read (YA and romance) are trending hard toward first-person and very simple language. If you write in third publishers and agents will either tell you to switch outright, or you'll get a lot of "seems too distant and impersonal" and such, which is just them asking for first person without saying it. Some get through anyway, especially from authors who got their start 10+ years ago and have more sway, but first is strongly preferred.
  - cld8483 4y ago
    > the teachers say teens are increasingly finding late-20th-century kids' books hard to read That doesn't surprise me at all, I'm sure 20th century teachers found the same trend in 20th century students trying to read 19th century books. It's a shame, but it is what it is. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from this, except that we should do what we can to encourage kids to read the classics despite (or even because) of the difficulty.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      I think what's so shocking is these books are already so damn simple—they weren't considered challenging to their target age group even 20 years ago—but they're still too complex for 'em. It's like if there are two clauses they can't keep the first one in their head long enough to make sense of the whole thing, and god forbid you need to track an idea across multiple sentences. I have a suspicion that the trend dates back much earlier (60s? 70s?), and owes to de-emphasizing poetry in English classes, since reading poetry requires heavy tracking of complex context over long stretches of text, making even fairly-complex prose mostly seem easy by comparison. This may just be a continuation of that trend—kids' lit gradually getting simpler in response to declining literacy that is itself due to shifts in curriculum focus, causing an ongoing, further decline.
cld8483 4y ago
I haven't heard of this trend before, what you say seems very strange to me since I've always found first-person novels to be more than a bit odd and uncanny.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  We Olds tend to, since it used to be (not even that long ago) rarely-used, and almost never without some good motivation or framing narrative demanding it. Kids coming up find it normal.
Foobar8568 4y ago
Oh I never realized that shift but my daughter did it, she complained many times she hates first person books (basically books written with "I") .

leephillips 4y ago

I heard recently that some people predict that the subjunctive will disappear from current French in another decade or so. Could this be true? Seems bizarre.

Foobar8568 4y ago
Subjunctive mood has 4 different tenses, present, passé, imparfait and plus-que-parfait. The last one is rarely used and has been for at least 30years. It's also similar to the conditional past 2nd form. e.g. "(que) j'eusse fini". For the other tenses, they are still used in sentences like "il faut que je fasse" and similar. Now, if we are speaking about the past simple (passé simple), it could disappear within one more generation. For mine (born in the low 80s), it was already "deprecated" when speaking.