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Isn't this situation the entire purpose of Signal..? Don't they already operate in the most authoritarian countries in the world? I don't understand why they wo

Isn't this situation the entire purpose of Signal..? Don't they already operate in the most authoritarian countries in the world? I don't understand why they would walk.

notpushkin 4y ago
This. I believe the problem is, UK is extremely powerful in terms of asking “please ban this and that app from app stores”, so they can effectively block it (unlike say Russia, which tried to block Telegram and failed spectacularly).
sshine 4y ago
I suppose the difference is negotiation: You can use leaving as a point of leverage in a country that allows for open debate about end-to-end encryption. You can claim that being in the country is at odds with the country's principles and threaten to pull out, or actually pull out, to make the users in that country aware that their basic privacy is being pulled away from them. In a country with an authoritarian regime, being an option under the radar provides may be a better option.
Raed667 4y ago
There is a difference between an APK being installable or downloadable from a store and your CEO getting into legal heat because they won't backdoor their encryption.
fauigerzigerk 4y ago
You have to consider how this would happen. If the government bans E2EE, Apple and Google will have to ban E2EE from their UK stores. Apps like Signal will then have to make a choice. Either publish an app that does not use E2EE or get removed from the app stores. What Signal are saying is that they would accept the ban rather than publish an app with weakened encryption. Apple users will not be able to make their own choice. Android users will be able to make their own choice thanks to side-loading.
- nicce 4y ago
  > Apple users will not be able to make their own choice. Android users will be able to make their own choice thanks to side-loading Recent update on WebKit about PWA, however, makes anything possible now on iOS devices. https://webkit.org/blog/13878/web-push-for-web-apps-on-ios-and-ipados/ https://webkit.org/blog/13878/web-push-for-web-apps-on-ios-a... Technically you need browser anymore to run proper messaging apps.
  - askvictor 4y ago
    There are problems with using a browser for delivery of any secure elements. It's slightly better than nothing, but if the govt can coerce Apple into blocking Signal from the app store, then they can coerce Apple into compromising their browser to deliver a modified Signal web-app for certain people.
    - a5withtrrs 4y ago
      If that's the case, why can't they coerce Apple into compromising their phone entirely? Why stop at the app store? Or the browser?
AdrianB1 4y ago
They operate where this is possible; if, for example, Signal operates in North Korea it is not because they have offices there, but because some people in NK can get a client and connect. If Signal would have offices in NK, it is guaranteed they will get to jail, not passing Go and not collecting 200, so Signal is not really operating in the countries you mentioned but users can utilize Signal there. In UK if Signal has any offices or employees, the UK government can force Signal to either put a backdoor in the product or move out of the country. The second choice is what Signal said it will do, it makes perfect sense - leave instead of bend over.

Isn't this situation the entire purpose of Signal..? Don't they already operate in the most authoritarian countries in the world? I don't understand why they would walk.

notpushkin 4y ago

This. I believe the problem is, UK is extremely powerful in terms of asking “please ban this and that app from app stores”, so they can effectively block it (unlike say Russia, which tried to block Telegram and failed spectacularly).

sshine 4y ago

I suppose the difference is negotiation: You can use leaving as a point of leverage in a country that allows for open debate about end-to-end encryption. You can claim that being in the country is at odds with the country's principles and threaten to pull out, or actually pull out, to make the users in that country aware that their basic privacy is being pulled away from them. In a country with an authoritarian regime, being an option under the radar provides may be a better option.

Raed667 4y ago

There is a difference between an APK being installable or downloadable from a store and your CEO getting into legal heat because they won't backdoor their encryption.

fauigerzigerk 4y ago

You have to consider how this would happen. If the government bans E2EE, Apple and Google will have to ban E2EE from their UK stores. Apps like Signal will then have to make a choice. Either publish an app that does not use E2EE or get removed from the app stores. What Signal are saying is that they would accept the ban rather than publish an app with weakened encryption. Apple users will not be able to make their own choice. Android users will be able to make their own choice thanks to side-loading.

nicce 4y ago
> Apple users will not be able to make their own choice. Android users will be able to make their own choice thanks to side-loading Recent update on WebKit about PWA, however, makes anything possible now on iOS devices. https://webkit.org/blog/13878/web-push-for-web-apps-on-ios-and-ipados/ https://webkit.org/blog/13878/web-push-for-web-apps-on-ios-a... Technically you need browser anymore to run proper messaging apps.
- askvictor 4y ago
  There are problems with using a browser for delivery of any secure elements. It's slightly better than nothing, but if the govt can coerce Apple into blocking Signal from the app store, then they can coerce Apple into compromising their browser to deliver a modified Signal web-app for certain people.
  - a5withtrrs 4y ago
    If that's the case, why can't they coerce Apple into compromising their phone entirely? Why stop at the app store? Or the browser?

AdrianB1 4y ago

They operate where this is possible; if, for example, Signal operates in North Korea it is not because they have offices there, but because some people in NK can get a client and connect. If Signal would have offices in NK, it is guaranteed they will get to jail, not passing Go and not collecting 200, so Signal is not really operating in the countries you mentioned but users can utilize Signal there. In UK if Signal has any offices or employees, the UK government can force Signal to either put a backdoor in the product or move out of the country. The second choice is what Signal said it will do, it makes perfect sense - leave instead of bend over.