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Not bad for a supposedly backwards repressed regime, unless thats the least stolen compared to 1st world countries? It also exposes a wider problem the crypto

Not bad for a supposedly backwards repressed regime, unless thats the least stolen compared to 1st world countries? It also exposes a wider problem the crypto community are not addressing.

rahen 4y ago
> Not bad for a supposedly backwards repressed regime What do you mean by supposedly? > It also exposes a wider problem the crypto community are not addressing. What wider problem? That money (in any form) can be stolen by a malevolent state?
- mountainriver 4y ago
  I think crypto has made it easier for them to steal money. I would be curious to see how much money oppressive regimes were able to steal and use before crypto to after
  - smcl 4y ago
    Yeah that's the part of the equation I'm curious about, so they stole "$1.7B" of crypto but were they able to actually get anything they can use out of it or does Kim Jong Un just really want to take part in the pay-to-play bored ape sewer game or whatever.
  - ttyprintk 4y ago
    Years ago, I heard that the top industrial export from North Korea was counterfeit $100 bills. When traveling in the surrounding countries, people treat that denomination with more skepticism as you get closer to North Korea. Special paper-protecting and flaw-spotting techniques that I have never seen inside the USA.
- smcl 4y ago
  > What do you mean by supposedly? The DPRK is often portrayed as incompetent, helpless state purely able to eke out an existence by the grace of China (to whom it is useful only as a sort of attack dog cum buffer state). So the fact that they've managed to run an operation that can steal this much crypto may come as a surprise to many. I don't imagine their intelligence agencies are quite on the same level of electronic warfare capabilities as USA, UK, Israel and friends, though. > That money (in any form) can be stolen by a malevolent state? Right but as we repeatedly saw in the last couple of years, a North Korean hacker could swindle some dope out of their $10k ape jpeg from across the globe at relatively little cost. They'll have a bit of a tougher job stealing that same $10k from someone's bank, from a safe deposit box, or hell even from a box under their bed. It requires another level of sophistication entirely and the costs and risks would be prohibitively high. I am sure if the North Korean state took issue with me personally and wanted to empty my bank account, they could probably make some headway ... but they'd likely get caught and they'd spend more time and effort doing so than they'd actually be able to retrieve.
  - Salgat 4y ago
    It's not really surprising. NK is able to outsource their education to Chinese universities, and with a division that can yield $1.7B in revenue, it's not surprising they invest in this skillset, even if the country at large is destitute and backwards.
    - smcl 4y ago
      It is a surprise for those who take the common portrayal of the country at face value. We know it's not quite the "hermit kingdom" it's often described as, but most do not.
      - drewmol 4y ago
        Any good sources on what it’s actually like?
        smcl 4y ago
        There are probably no good sources for what your average North Korean's life is currently like. There are a handful of famous accounts from a few of those who escaped the country and they're obviously pretty grim (particularly those describing prison camp life) but the stereotype is of this primitive country, which is backwards both ideologically and technologically. I'm not an idiot, I don't believe there's a little hidden Wakanda going on there. But we can at least observe that if they're able to hack that quantity of crypto there is some kind of tech operation going on there, however small it might be. So they're not entirely shut off and they're able to penetrate at least a bunch of western crypto-startups. If you're motivated, don't mind a very on-rails, restricted and relatively pricey tour, you can actually visit yourself: https://koryogroup.com https://koryogroup.com - I've wanted to for a while, but I've spent less money to travel in other interesting places with fewer restrictions for longer, so it's hard to justify the expense. An interesting read you might like is by a couple of Austrian guys who decided to hop on a train there, confusing and irritating border officials who didn't expect an invasion from the northern direction :) http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com Probably the most accessible and interesting thing though, is a podcast series called "Blowback" (it's Season 3, the previous two were on the Cuban revolution and the Iraq war). Now obviously this isn't the current day but it presents a slightly more balanced view of the events leading up to and throughout the Korean War than your average American or Brit might have picked up through osmosis. It's fascinating, well-produced, well-sourced and has a very good soundtrack. Here's ep 1: https://www.stitcher.com/show/blowback/episode/s3-episode-1-stop-me-before-i-kill-again-205155558 https://www.stitcher.com/show/blowback/episode/s3-episode-1-... As I said, there will be no good way to get any kind of verifiable account of how awful or how ok-ish is it is there. And I'm deliberately putting "ok-ish" as the upper limit because while I'm sure that all the ~20 million inhabitants aren't all living the prison camp lifestyle, I don't imagine your average North Korean has a particularly pleasant life. Sorry, maybe not the answer you were hoping for but I hope you enjoy any or all of the things I suggested :)
- moremetadata 4y ago
  North Korea's internet access is through a fibre optic connection from China, you know that place with the supposed great firewall of china, whilst the likes of the UK hides the fact and 5eyes hides the fact its got total oversight of the internet including Tor! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_in_North_Korea#International_Internet_access https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_in_North_Ko...
monero-xmr 4y ago
The crypto currency world is hyper focused on stopping this, considering it is one of the main avenues that statists attack crypto with now that the environmental nag is gone since the switch to Proof of Stake. I would say, conservatively, the traditional banking and real estate markets are 10,000x worse than crypto markets, but are un-policed because it's hidden, unlike the public blockchain networks. The few scams that are exposed, like the HSBC money laundering scandal, dwarf all of the crime every committed via crypto. But we didn't even put HSBC out of business or put a single employee in jail! Here is the Danish money laundering fraud that just concluded with $2 billion in fines on $160 billion in laundered money https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/danske-bank-pleads-guilty-fraud-us-banks-multi-billion-dollar-scheme-access-us-financial https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/danske-bank-pleads-guilty-fra...
- boringg 4y ago
  That 10,000x worth sounds like its using specific numbers as opposed to hand wavy arguments for which crypto is predicated on. Glad you brought real numbers to the table.
- crazygringo 4y ago
  > The crypto currency world is hyper focused on stopping this Can you explain how? I'm super curious because the whole point of crypto is you can't reverse transactions, and therefore crypto is only ever as secure as computer security generally, and there's nothing crypto can do about computer security generally. Or are people coming up with some new paradigm here that fixes this somehow?
  - anonymousDan 4y ago
    Why 'generally'? Why can't crypto systems be designed to be more secure than other software given what is at stake (e.g. by making the effort to formally verify systems/applications). Not saying it will happen but don't see why it is impossible.
    - crazygringo 4y ago
bdcravens 4y ago
The biggest risk with North Korea is seeing the state of the country, and underestimating the regime itself.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  Spot on. I once heard the Kims described as multimillionaires with one of the largest armies in the world [1] and nukes. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_military_and_paramilitary_personnel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_...
  - arp242 4y ago
    Size isn't everything when it comes to armies. See: Russia and Ukraine, USSR and the US in Afghanistan, Afghan army and Taliban, Boudica and the Romans, etc. Nuclear weapons and the fortified long-range artillery that can shell Seoul are the main point of concern, which are essentially a small-scale version of cold war era mutually assured destruction. The number of people in the army as such? I'm not so sure that's really something that's all that meaningful.

Not bad for a supposedly backwards repressed regime, unless thats the least stolen compared to 1st world countries? It also exposes a wider problem the crypto community are not addressing.

rahen 4y ago

> Not bad for a supposedly backwards repressed regime What do you mean by supposedly? > It also exposes a wider problem the crypto community are not addressing. What wider problem? That money (in any form) can be stolen by a malevolent state?

mountainriver 4y ago
I think crypto has made it easier for them to steal money. I would be curious to see how much money oppressive regimes were able to steal and use before crypto to after
- smcl 4y ago
  Yeah that's the part of the equation I'm curious about, so they stole "$1.7B" of crypto but were they able to actually get anything they can use out of it or does Kim Jong Un just really want to take part in the pay-to-play bored ape sewer game or whatever.
- ttyprintk 4y ago
  Years ago, I heard that the top industrial export from North Korea was counterfeit $100 bills. When traveling in the surrounding countries, people treat that denomination with more skepticism as you get closer to North Korea. Special paper-protecting and flaw-spotting techniques that I have never seen inside the USA.
smcl 4y ago
> What do you mean by supposedly? The DPRK is often portrayed as incompetent, helpless state purely able to eke out an existence by the grace of China (to whom it is useful only as a sort of attack dog cum buffer state). So the fact that they've managed to run an operation that can steal this much crypto may come as a surprise to many. I don't imagine their intelligence agencies are quite on the same level of electronic warfare capabilities as USA, UK, Israel and friends, though. > That money (in any form) can be stolen by a malevolent state? Right but as we repeatedly saw in the last couple of years, a North Korean hacker could swindle some dope out of their $10k ape jpeg from across the globe at relatively little cost. They'll have a bit of a tougher job stealing that same $10k from someone's bank, from a safe deposit box, or hell even from a box under their bed. It requires another level of sophistication entirely and the costs and risks would be prohibitively high. I am sure if the North Korean state took issue with me personally and wanted to empty my bank account, they could probably make some headway ... but they'd likely get caught and they'd spend more time and effort doing so than they'd actually be able to retrieve.
- Salgat 4y ago
  It's not really surprising. NK is able to outsource their education to Chinese universities, and with a division that can yield $1.7B in revenue, it's not surprising they invest in this skillset, even if the country at large is destitute and backwards.
  - smcl 4y ago
    It is a surprise for those who take the common portrayal of the country at face value. We know it's not quite the "hermit kingdom" it's often described as, but most do not.
    - drewmol 4y ago
      Any good sources on what it’s actually like?
      - smcl 4y ago
        There are probably no good sources for what your average North Korean's life is currently like. There are a handful of famous accounts from a few of those who escaped the country and they're obviously pretty grim (particularly those describing prison camp life) but the stereotype is of this primitive country, which is backwards both ideologically and technologically. I'm not an idiot, I don't believe there's a little hidden Wakanda going on there. But we can at least observe that if they're able to hack that quantity of crypto there is some kind of tech operation going on there, however small it might be. So they're not entirely shut off and they're able to penetrate at least a bunch of western crypto-startups. If you're motivated, don't mind a very on-rails, restricted and relatively pricey tour, you can actually visit yourself: https://koryogroup.com https://koryogroup.com - I've wanted to for a while, but I've spent less money to travel in other interesting places with fewer restrictions for longer, so it's hard to justify the expense. An interesting read you might like is by a couple of Austrian guys who decided to hop on a train there, confusing and irritating border officials who didn't expect an invasion from the northern direction :) http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com http://vienna-pyongyang.blogspot.com Probably the most accessible and interesting thing though, is a podcast series called "Blowback" (it's Season 3, the previous two were on the Cuban revolution and the Iraq war). Now obviously this isn't the current day but it presents a slightly more balanced view of the events leading up to and throughout the Korean War than your average American or Brit might have picked up through osmosis. It's fascinating, well-produced, well-sourced and has a very good soundtrack. Here's ep 1: https://www.stitcher.com/show/blowback/episode/s3-episode-1-stop-me-before-i-kill-again-205155558 https://www.stitcher.com/show/blowback/episode/s3-episode-1-... As I said, there will be no good way to get any kind of verifiable account of how awful or how ok-ish is it is there. And I'm deliberately putting "ok-ish" as the upper limit because while I'm sure that all the ~20 million inhabitants aren't all living the prison camp lifestyle, I don't imagine your average North Korean has a particularly pleasant life. Sorry, maybe not the answer you were hoping for but I hope you enjoy any or all of the things I suggested :)
moremetadata 4y ago
North Korea's internet access is through a fibre optic connection from China, you know that place with the supposed great firewall of china, whilst the likes of the UK hides the fact and 5eyes hides the fact its got total oversight of the internet including Tor! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_in_North_Korea#International_Internet_access https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_in_North_Ko...

monero-xmr 4y ago

The crypto currency world is hyper focused on stopping this, considering it is one of the main avenues that statists attack crypto with now that the environmental nag is gone since the switch to Proof of Stake. I would say, conservatively, the traditional banking and real estate markets are 10,000x worse than crypto markets, but are un-policed because it's hidden, unlike the public blockchain networks. The few scams that are exposed, like the HSBC money laundering scandal, dwarf all of the crime every committed via crypto. But we didn't even put HSBC out of business or put a single employee in jail! Here is the Danish money laundering fraud that just concluded with $2 billion in fines on $160 billion in laundered money https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/danske-bank-pleads-guilty-fraud-us-banks-multi-billion-dollar-scheme-access-us-financial https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/danske-bank-pleads-guilty-fra...

boringg 4y ago
That 10,000x worth sounds like its using specific numbers as opposed to hand wavy arguments for which crypto is predicated on. Glad you brought real numbers to the table.
crazygringo 4y ago
> The crypto currency world is hyper focused on stopping this Can you explain how? I'm super curious because the whole point of crypto is you can't reverse transactions, and therefore crypto is only ever as secure as computer security generally, and there's nothing crypto can do about computer security generally. Or are people coming up with some new paradigm here that fixes this somehow?
- anonymousDan 4y ago
  Why 'generally'? Why can't crypto systems be designed to be more secure than other software given what is at stake (e.g. by making the effort to formally verify systems/applications). Not saying it will happen but don't see why it is impossible.
  - crazygringo 4y ago

bdcravens 4y ago

The biggest risk with North Korea is seeing the state of the country, and underestimating the regime itself.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
Spot on. I once heard the Kims described as multimillionaires with one of the largest armies in the world [1] and nukes. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_military_and_paramilitary_personnel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_...
- arp242 4y ago
  Size isn't everything when it comes to armies. See: Russia and Ukraine, USSR and the US in Afghanistan, Afghan army and Taliban, Boudica and the Romans, etc. Nuclear weapons and the fortified long-range artillery that can shell Seoul are the main point of concern, which are essentially a small-scale version of cold war era mutually assured destruction. The number of people in the army as such? I'm not so sure that's really something that's all that meaningful.