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I had friends who should have been taken away from their neglecting parents, but never were. Turns out, if the child is not being literally beaten, all the pare

I had friends who should have been taken away from their neglecting parents, but never were. Turns out, if the child is not being literally beaten, all the parent has to do is not open the door when child services comes by. So if the child's teeth literally rot out of their mouth, they wear filthy clothes to school, they live in a house full of cat shit everywhere, and a rotted away caved in roof, all the parent has to do is continue smoking, drinking and browsing the internet. No one could do anything about it. Those kids' lives were ruined.

notch898a 4y ago
There are sadly some places where the courts/CPS will avoid removing them even in such a situation because their temporary care situation available from the state is so fucked that they're better off in literally any situation where they aren't beat/molested. Some parts of the US have truly dire situation with not enough quality foster car parents and basically a lord-of-the-flies temporary home available chock-full of kids with various unique and difficult to live with issues. You wouldn't remove a kid from a cat shit/dirty clothes/rotten teeth situation to toss them into lord of the flies with 9 kids who have violent tendencies as a result of being treated even worse.
- teawrecks 4y ago
  That makes sense. But what's bad is they had extended family who would have taken them in, there was just nothing the state could do. The mother brainwashed the younger kids to think their grandmother and aunt were terrible people, so they couldn't even lobby for themselves. My friend was the oldest of 3 sisters and she didn't even realize how bad her home life was until middle school. Eventually she started dating another of my friends and ended up just living with his family for years to avoid going home. After she turned 18 and was independent, she tried to get her siblings out, but the state said their hands were tied.
msla 4y ago
Yeah, the subculture of people who get incandescently angry about CPS aren't the kinds of people I'd want anywhere near children.
- jasonfarnon 4y ago
  for those of us who ticked off at CPS, that's kind of the point. who you want "anywhere near children" should have nothing to do with my relationship with my kids.
  - msla 4y ago
    > who you want "anywhere near children" should have nothing to do with my relationship with my kids. The laws against child abuse argue against this kind of absolutism. Do you have something against those, too?
    - jasonfarnon 4y ago
      I thought that was obvious.
    - gowld 4y ago
      Yes, they want to beat their kid in peace: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34918902 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34918902
  - oscillonoscope 4y ago
    Why? It seems like those things are directly related. If I see somebody treating their child poorly then I wouldn't want them caring for my children.
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  Guess I’d better quit as a paramedic since I’m apparently not fit to be around kids, let alone treat them in medical emergencies.
- mtrower 4y ago
  All well and good until you're on the reverse end of the stick. It cuts both ways. Sometimes CPS is direly necessary. Sometimes it's just harassment.
- takenaway 4y ago
jasonfarnon 4y ago
[flagged]
- vore 4y ago
  Fortunately?
  - claytongulick 4y ago
    It is indeed fortunate that certain groups of people have not been successful in equating spanking with abuse, from a legal standpoint. Reasonable and clearly defined punishments that include spanking as the "nuclear option" are part of a parent's toolkit. Child rearing is hard. I've been doing it for 24 years straight now with four kids. Kids are different and don't respond the same to punishments. What works for one may not work for another. Barring cases of abuse, I believe it's wrong to armchair quarterback parents raising their kids in the best way they know how.
    - vore 4y ago
      If I (non-consensually) spank an adult, that's abuse. If I spank an animal, that's also abuse. But if I spank a child, that's somehow magically not abuse? Most of Europe has been getting along fine without physically hitting their children for discipline. Parents should not be teaching their children that pain compliance is an acceptable method for getting what they want.
      - RHSeeger 4y ago
        Your analogy makes no sense. If I ground my child, preventing them from leaving the house, that's a reasonable punishment. If I prevent an adult from leaving my house, that's kidnapping. There are some things you can do to your child that you cannot do to another adult. And that's normal and good.
        vore 4y ago
        That's fair, and I don't disagree that parents and guardians should have rights over their children to punish them for discipline. That said, you certainly still can't spank your pets... Look, I agree that the state should have a lot of leeway in letting parents decide what is best for their children. But in and of itself, spanking is the direct use of physical harm (the fact people even split straws on whether or not it causes "lasting damage" is really the wrong question to be asking) to a child to get your way, whether you feel it's justified or not. And there is this reflexive defense of it because it's just this completely weirdly ritualized punishment where people have completely distanced themselves from the idea that while yes, they are inflicting physical pain upon their children, they've made themselves comfortable with the idea because it's a traditional parenting method.

notch898a 4y ago

There are sadly some places where the courts/CPS will avoid removing them even in such a situation because their temporary care situation available from the state is so fucked that they're better off in literally any situation where they aren't beat/molested. Some parts of the US have truly dire situation with not enough quality foster car parents and basically a lord-of-the-flies temporary home available chock-full of kids with various unique and difficult to live with issues. You wouldn't remove a kid from a cat shit/dirty clothes/rotten teeth situation to toss them into lord of the flies with 9 kids who have violent tendencies as a result of being treated even worse.

teawrecks 4y ago
That makes sense. But what's bad is they had extended family who would have taken them in, there was just nothing the state could do. The mother brainwashed the younger kids to think their grandmother and aunt were terrible people, so they couldn't even lobby for themselves. My friend was the oldest of 3 sisters and she didn't even realize how bad her home life was until middle school. Eventually she started dating another of my friends and ended up just living with his family for years to avoid going home. After she turned 18 and was independent, she tried to get her siblings out, but the state said their hands were tied.

msla 4y ago

Yeah, the subculture of people who get incandescently angry about CPS aren't the kinds of people I'd want anywhere near children.

jasonfarnon 4y ago
for those of us who ticked off at CPS, that's kind of the point. who you want "anywhere near children" should have nothing to do with my relationship with my kids.
- msla 4y ago
  > who you want "anywhere near children" should have nothing to do with my relationship with my kids. The laws against child abuse argue against this kind of absolutism. Do you have something against those, too?
  - jasonfarnon 4y ago
    I thought that was obvious.
  - gowld 4y ago
    Yes, they want to beat their kid in peace: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34918902 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34918902
- oscillonoscope 4y ago
  Why? It seems like those things are directly related. If I see somebody treating their child poorly then I wouldn't want them caring for my children.
FireBeyond 4y ago
Guess I’d better quit as a paramedic since I’m apparently not fit to be around kids, let alone treat them in medical emergencies.
mtrower 4y ago
All well and good until you're on the reverse end of the stick. It cuts both ways. Sometimes CPS is direly necessary. Sometimes it's just harassment.
takenaway 4y ago

jasonfarnon 4y ago

[flagged]

vore 4y ago
Fortunately?
- claytongulick 4y ago
  It is indeed fortunate that certain groups of people have not been successful in equating spanking with abuse, from a legal standpoint. Reasonable and clearly defined punishments that include spanking as the "nuclear option" are part of a parent's toolkit. Child rearing is hard. I've been doing it for 24 years straight now with four kids. Kids are different and don't respond the same to punishments. What works for one may not work for another. Barring cases of abuse, I believe it's wrong to armchair quarterback parents raising their kids in the best way they know how.
  - vore 4y ago
    If I (non-consensually) spank an adult, that's abuse. If I spank an animal, that's also abuse. But if I spank a child, that's somehow magically not abuse? Most of Europe has been getting along fine without physically hitting their children for discipline. Parents should not be teaching their children that pain compliance is an acceptable method for getting what they want.
    - RHSeeger 4y ago
      Your analogy makes no sense. If I ground my child, preventing them from leaving the house, that's a reasonable punishment. If I prevent an adult from leaving my house, that's kidnapping. There are some things you can do to your child that you cannot do to another adult. And that's normal and good.
      - vore 4y ago
        That's fair, and I don't disagree that parents and guardians should have rights over their children to punish them for discipline. That said, you certainly still can't spank your pets... Look, I agree that the state should have a lot of leeway in letting parents decide what is best for their children. But in and of itself, spanking is the direct use of physical harm (the fact people even split straws on whether or not it causes "lasting damage" is really the wrong question to be asking) to a child to get your way, whether you feel it's justified or not. And there is this reflexive defense of it because it's just this completely weirdly ritualized punishment where people have completely distanced themselves from the idea that while yes, they are inflicting physical pain upon their children, they've made themselves comfortable with the idea because it's a traditional parenting method.