3 ms·

Play fighting games! You may complain about smurfs, the netcode, input latency or S++ tier characters, but you'll never complain about cheaters.

unshavedyak 4y ago
Why is that? There's plenty of computer opponents in fighting games (offline/campaign/etc), wouldn't bots be possible to cheat with?
- serf 4y ago
  my take : you won't notice the cheaters because the modern fighting game genre is a DLC-laden garbage fire ; you're unlikely to complain about the cheaters .. ...but admittedly i've been turned sour by a few purchases recently in that genre .. so i'm probably just axe-grinding ;)
- aseipp 4y ago
  Several reasons but one is that, a lot of games where cheats are super effective are places where you can have "silent" advantages like ESP, equipment data, silent aim adjustment for better headshots/tracking, etc. These rely on the ability to not be detected and are extremely subtle when compared to normal gameplay. The more subtle, the harder to detect. Little of this applies in a fighting game. It's largely a mind game, not a game of inputs or technicalities. You're on the same level, can see everything. The only hidden information is what moves/combos you have, your opponent has, and how much information your opponent has on you. You have to be able to read your opponents moves, and respond appropriately. You have to trick your opponent and bait them into a scenario that is in your favor. Attacks have definitive strengths and weaknesses, and certain baits are better against certain people. If you attack me, and I intercept your attack with a "crushing blow" that simply overpowers your attack -- there's nothing the cheat can do to stop that, short of just like, breaking the game and undoing my damage. If I bait an attack, and you do it, and I dodge it by laying on the ground -- it can't retroactively change your input. If I set you up for a combo and begin wailing on you, the cheat cannot generally stop that. These games have mechanics where certain inputs just can't follow other inputs, where inputs are buffered certain ways, where there are vulnerability windows, etc. Exploiting these are key to success and cheats can't stop these mechanics. An example is Tekken where I play as Lei Wulong. He's extremely uncharacteristic and idiosyncratic, to the point that if you fight actual Lei players -- it's immediately obvious that bots don't play the same. One of my friends (a newer fighting game player) particularly hates my playstyle and tried to scrim against Lei bots to practice, but instantly realized they play nothing like me or any other Lei. Lei is a rare character to play. So he had to just keep scrimming, really. Many fighting games also have literal handicap mechanics that might be seen as equivalent to cheating in some capacity, but for the same reasons, it doesn't matter. They are often there to level the playing field, which is considered fair. Basic Combos in Tekken allow even the simplest of players to pull off powerful moves like Wind God Fist, but it doesn't matter how easy Wind God Fist is, I can and will still beat them even with that handicap, with no special moves of my own, because I can just read their attacks and respond and punish all of them and set them up and bait them endlessly. That said cheating does happen but often it's the last thing on my mind. Bullshit characters that are unbalanced is where all the complaints go. ;) TL;DR Humans have distinct fighting styles, and fighting games are largely mind games once you get into them. Cheats that are subtle enough to avoid detection can often easily be outplayed because of it.
  - rlonstein 4y ago
    > An example is Tekken where I play as Lei Wulong. He's extremely uncharacteristic and idiosyncratic, to the point that if you fight actual Lei players -- it's immediately obvious that bots don't play the same. One of my friends (a newer fighting game player) particularly hates my playstyle and tried to scrim against Lei bots to practice, but instantly realized they play nothing like me or any other Lei. Lei is a rare character to play. So he had to just keep scrimming, really. Fellow Tekken player here (since 1994 in the arcade even have a full-size arcade stick so the play feels similar). You're right that most of the practice bots don't fight anything like humans. You can, for lack of a better word, "bully" them by executing short combos and pushing them to stay on defense by advancing and they're usually terrible at take down reversals (the consistent exception is King). This tactic fails against a skilled human player who will jump, dash, side-step, or even slip in a low kick. Humans will also make you chase them around the arena when they're low on health.
- zero_one 4y ago
  There are bots for fighting games like the Rzr Infiltration bot for SFV and Smashbot for SSBM[1] which are good enough to take games off pro players. I'm not aware of it being abused at scale. Most people cheating in shooters or mobas aren't using full game-playing agents. They're using aimbots/skillshot scripts where you still need to move around and interact with stuff. Similarly, cheating in fighting games is typically done with button macros, so there's constant discussion on controller legality. However, button macros will only get you so far in fighting games, while an aimbot can get you close to the top of the ladder if undetected. https://github.com/altf4/SmashBot https://github.com/altf4/SmashBot
whateveracct 4y ago
Or you can go play with people in person and not complain about anything :) except the busted characters I guess haha

unshavedyak 4y ago

Why is that? There's plenty of computer opponents in fighting games (offline/campaign/etc), wouldn't bots be possible to cheat with?

serf 4y ago
my take : you won't notice the cheaters because the modern fighting game genre is a DLC-laden garbage fire ; you're unlikely to complain about the cheaters .. ...but admittedly i've been turned sour by a few purchases recently in that genre .. so i'm probably just axe-grinding ;)
aseipp 4y ago
Several reasons but one is that, a lot of games where cheats are super effective are places where you can have "silent" advantages like ESP, equipment data, silent aim adjustment for better headshots/tracking, etc. These rely on the ability to not be detected and are extremely subtle when compared to normal gameplay. The more subtle, the harder to detect. Little of this applies in a fighting game. It's largely a mind game, not a game of inputs or technicalities. You're on the same level, can see everything. The only hidden information is what moves/combos you have, your opponent has, and how much information your opponent has on you. You have to be able to read your opponents moves, and respond appropriately. You have to trick your opponent and bait them into a scenario that is in your favor. Attacks have definitive strengths and weaknesses, and certain baits are better against certain people. If you attack me, and I intercept your attack with a "crushing blow" that simply overpowers your attack -- there's nothing the cheat can do to stop that, short of just like, breaking the game and undoing my damage. If I bait an attack, and you do it, and I dodge it by laying on the ground -- it can't retroactively change your input. If I set you up for a combo and begin wailing on you, the cheat cannot generally stop that. These games have mechanics where certain inputs just can't follow other inputs, where inputs are buffered certain ways, where there are vulnerability windows, etc. Exploiting these are key to success and cheats can't stop these mechanics. An example is Tekken where I play as Lei Wulong. He's extremely uncharacteristic and idiosyncratic, to the point that if you fight actual Lei players -- it's immediately obvious that bots don't play the same. One of my friends (a newer fighting game player) particularly hates my playstyle and tried to scrim against Lei bots to practice, but instantly realized they play nothing like me or any other Lei. Lei is a rare character to play. So he had to just keep scrimming, really. Many fighting games also have literal handicap mechanics that might be seen as equivalent to cheating in some capacity, but for the same reasons, it doesn't matter. They are often there to level the playing field, which is considered fair. Basic Combos in Tekken allow even the simplest of players to pull off powerful moves like Wind God Fist, but it doesn't matter how easy Wind God Fist is, I can and will still beat them even with that handicap, with no special moves of my own, because I can just read their attacks and respond and punish all of them and set them up and bait them endlessly. That said cheating does happen but often it's the last thing on my mind. Bullshit characters that are unbalanced is where all the complaints go. ;) TL;DR Humans have distinct fighting styles, and fighting games are largely mind games once you get into them. Cheats that are subtle enough to avoid detection can often easily be outplayed because of it.
- rlonstein 4y ago
  > An example is Tekken where I play as Lei Wulong. He's extremely uncharacteristic and idiosyncratic, to the point that if you fight actual Lei players -- it's immediately obvious that bots don't play the same. One of my friends (a newer fighting game player) particularly hates my playstyle and tried to scrim against Lei bots to practice, but instantly realized they play nothing like me or any other Lei. Lei is a rare character to play. So he had to just keep scrimming, really. Fellow Tekken player here (since 1994 in the arcade even have a full-size arcade stick so the play feels similar). You're right that most of the practice bots don't fight anything like humans. You can, for lack of a better word, "bully" them by executing short combos and pushing them to stay on defense by advancing and they're usually terrible at take down reversals (the consistent exception is King). This tactic fails against a skilled human player who will jump, dash, side-step, or even slip in a low kick. Humans will also make you chase them around the arena when they're low on health.
zero_one 4y ago
There are bots for fighting games like the Rzr Infiltration bot for SFV and Smashbot for SSBM[1] which are good enough to take games off pro players. I'm not aware of it being abused at scale. Most people cheating in shooters or mobas aren't using full game-playing agents. They're using aimbots/skillshot scripts where you still need to move around and interact with stuff. Similarly, cheating in fighting games is typically done with button macros, so there's constant discussion on controller legality. However, button macros will only get you so far in fighting games, while an aimbot can get you close to the top of the ladder if undetected. https://github.com/altf4/SmashBot https://github.com/altf4/SmashBot

whateveracct 4y ago

Or you can go play with people in person and not complain about anything :) except the busted characters I guess haha