5 ms·

There's some other fundamental problem if cops and CPS were pulling these stunts anyway. Maybe some better mechanism for recourse against overreach is needed?

JustSomeNobody 4y ago
Such as laws that protect parents?
- lmm 4y ago
  The problem happens further up the funnel than the actual law. The usual pattern is something like: parent gets reported by local busybody, gets investigated and/or arrested, everything is dismissed after a couple of weeks but in the meantime their life has been massively disrupted. Changing the law doesn't necessarily fix that because what the parent was doing was never illegal in the first place.
  - ryandrake 4y ago
    Ideally, the parent should at least be able to sue the busybody for damages in this case. If no evidence of wrongdoing is found, the busybody should be identified so the parent knows who to take legal action against.
    - ichugwindex 4y ago
      Wouldn't that create a bad incentive to not report crime then? Seems like the right response is to have the police/CPS act properly than to try and hold Karen's accountable.
      - ryandrake 4y ago
        It would definitely disincentivize false reporting, and make people think twice if they are not sure. Which would be good incentives. We have far too many people calling the police casually for non-emergency reasons and as a bad faith way to bring violence to someone they don't like, like SWATing. Every month another E-911 dispatch center complains they're overloaded. There's a subset of Americans who simply can't mind their own business and feel they have to go out and bully people, and the lack of accountability and consequences just encourages them. Yes, there may be a handful of real crimes that go unreported, but I'm kind of neutral on that. It's not the public's job to tattle on each other by triggering a potentially deadly police response. Having strong accountability for the reporter would mean only the most serious, obvious, violent crimes get reported.
rootusrootus 4y ago
First I'd like to know the incidence rate. We tend to see a few specific examples regurgitated repeatedly for several years after they occur, which leads me to suspect that it perhaps doesn't happen that often. This is a nation of 330 million people, after all, so it's unrealistic to expect stupidity will happen zero times.
- sbuttgereit 4y ago
  I agree with what you say in principle, but if that's true the (possibly) few cases of overreach have to have remedy for those that are injured. But now we're starting to get into the territory of issues of qualified immunity are an issue (recently discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34901629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34901629, for example). Having said that, I think the tendency of state agencies, in a political landscape where we regularly justify increased legal intrusiveness into our lives using "think of the children" arguments, to use state power to force our personal cultural prerogatives, and to ask the state to generally solve our problems for us, will be for "stupid" child protective actions to increase over time. So I applaud the actions to nip this is in the bud... assuming you're right.
at_a_remove 4y ago
You've got basically four avenues for this, leading to some kind of CPS and police overreach. 1) Cops just seeing a kid walking. It happens. 2) CPS hearing rumors, whatever. 3) Vindictive exes and people "in house." 4) Busybody neighbors, the nosy Karens. Both police and CPS probably have some "duty" to begin some sort of action upon reporting, but I think separating the reporting from the action is important. And false reporting ought to be penalized, as in, let's not weaponize our systems.
aidenn0 4y ago
In many places, cops will nearly always show up when called. I left an 8 year old kid in a car (parked in the shade) for 5 minutes when running an errand and as I was getting in the car, a cop showed up. Someone had called 911. Cop asked how old the kid was, I said "8" and they rolled their eyes and left.

JustSomeNobody 4y ago

Such as laws that protect parents?

lmm 4y ago
The problem happens further up the funnel than the actual law. The usual pattern is something like: parent gets reported by local busybody, gets investigated and/or arrested, everything is dismissed after a couple of weeks but in the meantime their life has been massively disrupted. Changing the law doesn't necessarily fix that because what the parent was doing was never illegal in the first place.
- ryandrake 4y ago
  Ideally, the parent should at least be able to sue the busybody for damages in this case. If no evidence of wrongdoing is found, the busybody should be identified so the parent knows who to take legal action against.
  - ichugwindex 4y ago
    Wouldn't that create a bad incentive to not report crime then? Seems like the right response is to have the police/CPS act properly than to try and hold Karen's accountable.
    - ryandrake 4y ago
      It would definitely disincentivize false reporting, and make people think twice if they are not sure. Which would be good incentives. We have far too many people calling the police casually for non-emergency reasons and as a bad faith way to bring violence to someone they don't like, like SWATing. Every month another E-911 dispatch center complains they're overloaded. There's a subset of Americans who simply can't mind their own business and feel they have to go out and bully people, and the lack of accountability and consequences just encourages them. Yes, there may be a handful of real crimes that go unreported, but I'm kind of neutral on that. It's not the public's job to tattle on each other by triggering a potentially deadly police response. Having strong accountability for the reporter would mean only the most serious, obvious, violent crimes get reported.

rootusrootus 4y ago

First I'd like to know the incidence rate. We tend to see a few specific examples regurgitated repeatedly for several years after they occur, which leads me to suspect that it perhaps doesn't happen that often. This is a nation of 330 million people, after all, so it's unrealistic to expect stupidity will happen zero times.

sbuttgereit 4y ago
I agree with what you say in principle, but if that's true the (possibly) few cases of overreach have to have remedy for those that are injured. But now we're starting to get into the territory of issues of qualified immunity are an issue (recently discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34901629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34901629, for example). Having said that, I think the tendency of state agencies, in a political landscape where we regularly justify increased legal intrusiveness into our lives using "think of the children" arguments, to use state power to force our personal cultural prerogatives, and to ask the state to generally solve our problems for us, will be for "stupid" child protective actions to increase over time. So I applaud the actions to nip this is in the bud... assuming you're right.

at_a_remove 4y ago

You've got basically four avenues for this, leading to some kind of CPS and police overreach. 1) Cops just seeing a kid walking. It happens. 2) CPS hearing rumors, whatever. 3) Vindictive exes and people "in house." 4) Busybody neighbors, the nosy Karens. Both police and CPS probably have some "duty" to begin some sort of action upon reporting, but I think separating the reporting from the action is important. And false reporting ought to be penalized, as in, let's not weaponize our systems.

aidenn0 4y ago

In many places, cops will nearly always show up when called. I left an 8 year old kid in a car (parked in the shade) for 5 minutes when running an errand and as I was getting in the car, a cop showed up. Someone had called 911. Cop asked how old the kid was, I said "8" and they rolled their eyes and left.