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There is no reason why simple non-smart phones should not support NFC. > watching people at stores and coffee shops in my area, it seems that only about 10-20%

There is no reason why simple non-smart phones should not support NFC. > watching people at stores and coffee shops in my area, it seems that only about 10-20% of them use their phones for payment. It seem more like 50% here in central Norway, perhaps more.

JohnFen 4y ago
But doesn't the phone need to interact with a backend service to be used for payment? Maybe it doesn't -- I don't know how these services actually work in this regard -- but typically you need to use an app and register your accounts in order to be able to do payments, correct? A dumb phone wouldn't do any of that stuff.
- vel0city 4y ago
  It doesn't necessarily need to be online for that kind of payment workflow. It could just directly emulate a payment card, which those definitely do not have internet connectivity. It would probably take some kind of app to add/remove payment cards, but theoretically this could just be something built-in to the device instead of being some kind of app you'd get from an app store. Dumb phones still run applications, they're not mechanical devices, at least anymore.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    > this could just be something built-in to the device instead of being some kind of app you'd get from an app store. Yes, I wasn't asking about where the app came from. Preinstalled or user-installed doesn't matter. So what I hear you saying is that the app doesn't need to communicate with anything, either to add/drop accounts or to make payments. Is that correct?
    - vel0city 4y ago
      Ah ok, I think I get what you're talking about -- you're talking about the initial provisioning. I do imagine that would need some kind of communication. But it might not necessarily be some kind of internet connection on the device itself. It could be logging into your bank's website from your computer and putting in some kind of fixed identifier of the device or like a smart card transaction with the website by a USB cable, or registering the device at some physical bank branch, putting in some kind of SIM-card like device, etc. There would probably have to be some way of pairing the device to your account, but there's probably many potential ways it could be done with some theoretical "dumb phone".
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        Yes, I understand better now. I don't use these sorts of things, so I've never needed to really know how they work practically. I do understand the cryptographic underpinnings. So, a feature phone could be used for this. Good to know!
        vel0city 4y ago
        Theoretically, yes. In practice, I don't know any.
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  No both Google Pay and Apple Pay directly work with the payment terminal as if they were cards. You need to add your card to the app so that your bank sends the necessary keys to your phone secure enclave but then it works perfectly fine offline. You just have to tap twice on a physical button and pass the biometric auth to pay.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    > your bank sends the necessary keys to your phone Ah, that clarifies things. Thank you.

JohnFen 4y ago

But doesn't the phone need to interact with a backend service to be used for payment? Maybe it doesn't -- I don't know how these services actually work in this regard -- but typically you need to use an app and register your accounts in order to be able to do payments, correct? A dumb phone wouldn't do any of that stuff.

vel0city 4y ago
It doesn't necessarily need to be online for that kind of payment workflow. It could just directly emulate a payment card, which those definitely do not have internet connectivity. It would probably take some kind of app to add/remove payment cards, but theoretically this could just be something built-in to the device instead of being some kind of app you'd get from an app store. Dumb phones still run applications, they're not mechanical devices, at least anymore.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > this could just be something built-in to the device instead of being some kind of app you'd get from an app store. Yes, I wasn't asking about where the app came from. Preinstalled or user-installed doesn't matter. So what I hear you saying is that the app doesn't need to communicate with anything, either to add/drop accounts or to make payments. Is that correct?
  - vel0city 4y ago
    Ah ok, I think I get what you're talking about -- you're talking about the initial provisioning. I do imagine that would need some kind of communication. But it might not necessarily be some kind of internet connection on the device itself. It could be logging into your bank's website from your computer and putting in some kind of fixed identifier of the device or like a smart card transaction with the website by a USB cable, or registering the device at some physical bank branch, putting in some kind of SIM-card like device, etc. There would probably have to be some way of pairing the device to your account, but there's probably many potential ways it could be done with some theoretical "dumb phone".
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      Yes, I understand better now. I don't use these sorts of things, so I've never needed to really know how they work practically. I do understand the cryptographic underpinnings. So, a feature phone could be used for this. Good to know!
      - vel0city 4y ago
        Theoretically, yes. In practice, I don't know any.
WastingMyTime89 4y ago
No both Google Pay and Apple Pay directly work with the payment terminal as if they were cards. You need to add your card to the app so that your bank sends the necessary keys to your phone secure enclave but then it works perfectly fine offline. You just have to tap twice on a physical button and pass the biometric auth to pay.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > your bank sends the necessary keys to your phone Ah, that clarifies things. Thank you.