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Frankly, Bellamy's utopia still sounds miserable and far less believable than Orwell's or even Huxley's. The organization of society in Bellamy is laughably nai

Frankly, Bellamy's utopia still sounds miserable and far less believable than Orwell's or even Huxley's. The organization of society in Bellamy is laughably naive of both human nature and economics. Honestly it reads like a children's book more than an achievable goal or prediction of things to come.

wpietri 4y ago
One of the frequent critiques of older science fiction works is that they failed to predict the future, or that they seem unrealistic in light of what we now know. I think that misunderstands the point of science fiction.
- throwaway4aday 4y ago
  That's not what I'm accusing Bellamy of. Others have pointed out that certain aspects of his book do resemble things we have now. My critique is of his portrayal of the social and economic structure as well as the interpersonal dealings that come along with such systems. If you want specifics, he thought that the problem of labour could be solved by simply drafting everyone into a national labour army for 24 years but at the same time allow them to just do whatever they want and somehow that would result in perfect harmony. Those are two completely contradictory thoughts, you either believe people can self-organize and determine for themselves what field they should be working in and what work they should be doing or you believe that we need a strongly regimented society where everyone is legally obligated to fulfill duties at the behest of the state. He also doesn't consider any second order effects of this. What happens to immigration and emigration? If you're drafted you can't move to another country, so you've got two periods when you can move: as a kid or once you're retired (and it's not so clear that it would be possible once you retire since you're still technically on call according to Bellamy). That means no families can move since your child bearing and rearing years are owned by the state. So it's either you move by yourself as a kid or only once you're fully retired and not liable to perform any work for the state. He also thinks that everyone is just ok with this because it is expected of them, even in his day he should have seem the absurdity of this. It's all just socialist fantasizing with no grounding in reality. The point of science fiction is to create a believable vision of the future, even if it is fantastical. You know good writing when you see it because you can suspend your disbelief until the end. If you get pulled out of the author's vision multiple times per paragraph you know it's crap.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    > The point of science fiction is to create a believable vision of the future It isn't, but even running with that, he did. It was an enormously popular book at the time, and fits in with a lot of other utopian socialist visions of that era. I understand that it doesn't fit with your personal ideologies and beliefs more than century later. But you were not his audience. A book with the same goals written today would be written differently. Even good science fiction from decades later doesn't hold up by the standards you're expecting of it. E.g., Bradbury's Martian Chronicles is also shockingly unrealistic to today's reader. But that's nothing on Bradbury or the book.

wpietri 4y ago

One of the frequent critiques of older science fiction works is that they failed to predict the future, or that they seem unrealistic in light of what we now know. I think that misunderstands the point of science fiction.

throwaway4aday 4y ago
That's not what I'm accusing Bellamy of. Others have pointed out that certain aspects of his book do resemble things we have now. My critique is of his portrayal of the social and economic structure as well as the interpersonal dealings that come along with such systems. If you want specifics, he thought that the problem of labour could be solved by simply drafting everyone into a national labour army for 24 years but at the same time allow them to just do whatever they want and somehow that would result in perfect harmony. Those are two completely contradictory thoughts, you either believe people can self-organize and determine for themselves what field they should be working in and what work they should be doing or you believe that we need a strongly regimented society where everyone is legally obligated to fulfill duties at the behest of the state. He also doesn't consider any second order effects of this. What happens to immigration and emigration? If you're drafted you can't move to another country, so you've got two periods when you can move: as a kid or once you're retired (and it's not so clear that it would be possible once you retire since you're still technically on call according to Bellamy). That means no families can move since your child bearing and rearing years are owned by the state. So it's either you move by yourself as a kid or only once you're fully retired and not liable to perform any work for the state. He also thinks that everyone is just ok with this because it is expected of them, even in his day he should have seem the absurdity of this. It's all just socialist fantasizing with no grounding in reality. The point of science fiction is to create a believable vision of the future, even if it is fantastical. You know good writing when you see it because you can suspend your disbelief until the end. If you get pulled out of the author's vision multiple times per paragraph you know it's crap.
- wpietri 4y ago
  > The point of science fiction is to create a believable vision of the future It isn't, but even running with that, he did. It was an enormously popular book at the time, and fits in with a lot of other utopian socialist visions of that era. I understand that it doesn't fit with your personal ideologies and beliefs more than century later. But you were not his audience. A book with the same goals written today would be written differently. Even good science fiction from decades later doesn't hold up by the standards you're expecting of it. E.g., Bradbury's Martian Chronicles is also shockingly unrealistic to today's reader. But that's nothing on Bradbury or the book.