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I recently started to view religion as a mental operating system that enables people to do things that are not possible with other operating systems. Having ki

I recently started to view religion as a mental operating system that enables people to do things that are not possible with other operating systems. Having kids is one of those things. For example, in the US a woman who is considered religious based on frequency of services attendance has on average almost one child more than a woman considered nonreligious. ([0] presents one such chart for the United States.) Except for Buddhism. For some reason, Buddhist women have lower fertility than even atheists [1] I find this surprising and don't really understand the reason. So anyways, Korea seems to be doubly affected - it has one of the world's highest rates of non religiosity [2], and out of those few who are religious, most are Buddhist. It seems like if you want to encourage population growth in your country, you want to encourage adherence to an Abrahamic religion or Hinduism. [0] https://ifstudies.org/blog/americas-growing-religious-secular-fertility-divide https://ifstudies.org/blog/americas-growing-religious-secula... [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.worldatlas.com/amp/feature/5-facts-to-know-about-the-future-of-buddhism.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.worldatlas.com/amp/feature/... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_irreligion#:~:text=Relative%20to%20its%20own%20populations,Japan%20(64%2D65%25) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_irrelig....

twelve40 4y ago
> out of those few who are religious, most are Buddhist but... 56.1% No religion 27.6% Christianity 15.5% Korean Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea
cma 4y ago
> Having kids is one of those things. For example, in the US a woman who is considered religious based on frequency of services attendance has on average almost one child more than a woman considered nonreligious. Is all of this causitive? Could say similar about daycare, which incidentally churches also often provide.
noodleman 4y ago
Your reasoning is speculation and your sources only really show evidence for your claim that religiosity is declining. Another correlation with birthrate is wealth. Wealthy countries have more expensive costs associated with raising children, such as housing and childcare. Given that children can't effectively work for 15-20 years, they are a financial burden. In poor countries, children become another set of hands that can be put to use from only a few years old.
Jonnax 4y ago
Perhaps instead of thinking of religion as "operating systems" you think instead about society as a whole. Religion is just a type of politics. A set of ideas and values. The factor you're masking is gender equality as it ties to religion. India has a significant gender imbalance of children skewed towards boys due to girls being aborted. Because due to religion were less valued and was reflected in inheritance laws. Korea recently elected an antifeminist leader driven by popularity with young men. Doesn't make them attractive unless we go back to the times of forced marriage. Though I do hear there's activists in the west preaching "enforced monogamy" There are other factors that are more impactful. Like cost of living being significantly higher resulting in adults spending more years working to get to the same financial position as the previous generation. If you need to work until you're 30 to be in the same relative position as your parents when they were 24 then that makes a huge impact when it comes to starting a family. Also factor in that more educated people have fewer children worldwide, and university education adds more years before a person starts working.
barbazoo 4y ago
Among people I know from both camps, atheists and religious people, the biggest factor seems to be the environment they live in, mostly money but really child care. They simply cannot afford or would stretch their budget too much to have another child. Maybe there's a correlation between religiousness, especially ability to attend service every week and income possibly?
- YellOh 4y ago
  I would find this surprising... in much of the West, it seems to be the wealthy & highly educated who are more irreligious (ex. [0]). Churches, rather than something one is privileged to attend, tend to serve as a social safety net for those in poverty, and allow savings by eg. promoting those in the congregation to help each other with tasks like childcare. The ability to disconnect from religious communities and still be financially/socially healthy tends to be an indicator of higher personal wealth. Caveat that I'm mostly talking about generic Christianity, for numbers & personal experience reasons - Judaism, for instance, has a strong positive correlation with wealth. [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/11/how-income-varies-among-u-s-religious-groups/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/11/how-income-... EDIT: also, in my experience, "child care" isn't at all an limiting issue with attending services. At Catholic masses, even small infants are very welcomed.
  - barbazoo 4y ago
    By child care I didn't mean child care during church service but cost of child care being prohibitive to have children in the first place.
aliswe 4y ago
Unpopular opinion perhaps, but I consider buddhists atheist

twelve40 4y ago

> out of those few who are religious, most are Buddhist but... 56.1% No religion 27.6% Christianity 15.5% Korean Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea

cma 4y ago

> Having kids is one of those things. For example, in the US a woman who is considered religious based on frequency of services attendance has on average almost one child more than a woman considered nonreligious. Is all of this causitive? Could say similar about daycare, which incidentally churches also often provide.

noodleman 4y ago

Your reasoning is speculation and your sources only really show evidence for your claim that religiosity is declining. Another correlation with birthrate is wealth. Wealthy countries have more expensive costs associated with raising children, such as housing and childcare. Given that children can't effectively work for 15-20 years, they are a financial burden. In poor countries, children become another set of hands that can be put to use from only a few years old.

Jonnax 4y ago

Perhaps instead of thinking of religion as "operating systems" you think instead about society as a whole. Religion is just a type of politics. A set of ideas and values. The factor you're masking is gender equality as it ties to religion. India has a significant gender imbalance of children skewed towards boys due to girls being aborted. Because due to religion were less valued and was reflected in inheritance laws. Korea recently elected an antifeminist leader driven by popularity with young men. Doesn't make them attractive unless we go back to the times of forced marriage. Though I do hear there's activists in the west preaching "enforced monogamy" There are other factors that are more impactful. Like cost of living being significantly higher resulting in adults spending more years working to get to the same financial position as the previous generation. If you need to work until you're 30 to be in the same relative position as your parents when they were 24 then that makes a huge impact when it comes to starting a family. Also factor in that more educated people have fewer children worldwide, and university education adds more years before a person starts working.

barbazoo 4y ago

Among people I know from both camps, atheists and religious people, the biggest factor seems to be the environment they live in, mostly money but really child care. They simply cannot afford or would stretch their budget too much to have another child. Maybe there's a correlation between religiousness, especially ability to attend service every week and income possibly?

YellOh 4y ago
I would find this surprising... in much of the West, it seems to be the wealthy & highly educated who are more irreligious (ex. [0]). Churches, rather than something one is privileged to attend, tend to serve as a social safety net for those in poverty, and allow savings by eg. promoting those in the congregation to help each other with tasks like childcare. The ability to disconnect from religious communities and still be financially/socially healthy tends to be an indicator of higher personal wealth. Caveat that I'm mostly talking about generic Christianity, for numbers & personal experience reasons - Judaism, for instance, has a strong positive correlation with wealth. [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/11/how-income-varies-among-u-s-religious-groups/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/11/how-income-... EDIT: also, in my experience, "child care" isn't at all an limiting issue with attending services. At Catholic masses, even small infants are very welcomed.
- barbazoo 4y ago
  By child care I didn't mean child care during church service but cost of child care being prohibitive to have children in the first place.

aliswe 4y ago

Unpopular opinion perhaps, but I consider buddhists atheist