4 ms·

> a ~10" compact laptop that IBM sold for a brief period in the mid-90s. It has a full sized keyboard that flares out as you open the lid It always amazes me w

> a ~10" compact laptop that IBM sold for a brief period in the mid-90s. It has a full sized keyboard that flares out as you open the lid It always amazes me what guys in 1995 could fit a full sized keyboard with all keys in ~10", yet since 2010 the humanity lost this wondrous know-how and now even in a 15" notebook you would only get an abomination with merged keys and goddamn PrtScr instead of ContextMenu.

atdrummond 4y ago
I think we can blame the mass emulation of Apple products by others for this phenomenon. Since Jobs/Ive would never make such a design, neither will the other major laptop firms.
- rchaud 4y ago
  Macbooks go way too far with this now. I'm typing this on a 2014 base model MBP that has both 1x HDMI, 2x miniDP and 2x USB 3 ports. On the 2020 M1 MBP, you get 2 USB ports, and that's it! And they have to handle power, display AND headphones!
  - rappr 4y ago
    Apple hasn't removed the headphone jack from any of their laptops.
NikolaNovak 4y ago
Oh Gawd don't get me started. I spent personal money on the ThinkPad t25 years ago so I could have aproper keyboard with proper home/end/pgup/pgdwn block. It's still my main daily driver. Now every laptop invents it's own abomination and layout, with key keys scattered and hidden, arrow keys combined, etc (and a track pad that's slowly eating up the entire surface area instead.... Can you tell I'm a track point person :-)
- bartislartfast 4y ago
  I couldn't afford to buy myself the t25, always wondered if it was worth the money. sounds like it was!
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    It depends. On the surface, not at all. It's a t470 with a massive marketing spiel. On the other hand, if you spend 10hrs a day on a laptop, you'll keep it for many years, and keyboard layout is important to you, it may be a worthile choice priced per hour of usage. You can also think of it as pre-moded and warrantied thinkPad :-). I have a couple of t480 and e595 around too but much prefer the t25. I also have a client mandated HP that, while it does have a track point, has an apple-style format and keyboard that drives me up the wall. Non-sensical unique layout, no feel in keys, plus dreaded combined up and down arrows (WHY?? There's so much room on that side! So clearly a choice of pretty over useful/functional. The t25 arrow keys extend down past space key, so they are full size, which neatly demonstrates their priority aligns with mine :)
    - petodo 4y ago
      You spend 10 hours each day out of office/house? Seems like problem easily solvable by external keyboard (you can keep same one at home and at office), that's what I do. I have T520 (specifically bought originally for keyboard instead newer models) and hooked up wireless full size keyboard, mouse and 32" external display since msot of the time I work from home, if I travel I just take wireless mouse with me.
      - NikolaNovak 4y ago
        Agreed; I do have the Microsoft Skulpt keyboards for both client HP and my T25 laptop (plus monitors on stands etc). But... life! :). Two very young kids and wife who need support through the day, so I end up using laptop as a lap-top frequently enough :). I take my dad to a doctor appointment, or work from friend's home, etc etc. Overall, laptop's keyboard is still important for my personal use-cases.
exitb 4y ago
Well, we tend to assume that the keyboard layout we know from the PCs in the 90s is the only correct one, but these things were always changing and adapting to the needs. Looking at the average modern computer user, I understand why a contemporary MacBook keyboard looks the way it does. That being said, it's disappointing that every other laptop keyboard looks just the same. Modern tech always converges to a single design, there is no market to create something, unless you can really sell millions of it.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  I agree with your point. 90s keyboard isn't necessarily "the right one", or perfect. BUT! I dislike every manufacturer making their own keyboard layout with no clear benefit or improvement. If it works don't break it. In particular, hiding key navigational keys (home / end / pgup / pgdwn), which are not exactly a nerdy requirement - anybody using ms office or browser or other tools proficiently will adopt them.
- justsomehnguy 4y ago
  > adapting to the needs >> goddamn PrtScr instead of ContextMenu Please show me the people who needs to make screenshots so often what there is a key under right thumb. > keyboard layout we know from the PCs in the 90s is the only correct one It's not the best but it's on the every goddamn desktop keyboard. The only reason it's get constantly re-arranged without any regard to usability or common sense[0] is what someone needs to justify own existence, just like "web-masters" which "plays with fonts" because otherwise they would be doing nothing. [0] how many times you powered down/pressed without any result Backspace only to encounter what it is not Backspace anymore, but Power?
bartislartfast 4y ago
> yet since 2010 the humanity lost this wondrous know-how more like its cheaper

atdrummond 4y ago

I think we can blame the mass emulation of Apple products by others for this phenomenon. Since Jobs/Ive would never make such a design, neither will the other major laptop firms.

rchaud 4y ago
Macbooks go way too far with this now. I'm typing this on a 2014 base model MBP that has both 1x HDMI, 2x miniDP and 2x USB 3 ports. On the 2020 M1 MBP, you get 2 USB ports, and that's it! And they have to handle power, display AND headphones!
- rappr 4y ago
  Apple hasn't removed the headphone jack from any of their laptops.

NikolaNovak 4y ago

Oh Gawd don't get me started. I spent personal money on the ThinkPad t25 years ago so I could have aproper keyboard with proper home/end/pgup/pgdwn block. It's still my main daily driver. Now every laptop invents it's own abomination and layout, with key keys scattered and hidden, arrow keys combined, etc (and a track pad that's slowly eating up the entire surface area instead.... Can you tell I'm a track point person :-)

bartislartfast 4y ago
I couldn't afford to buy myself the t25, always wondered if it was worth the money. sounds like it was!
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  It depends. On the surface, not at all. It's a t470 with a massive marketing spiel. On the other hand, if you spend 10hrs a day on a laptop, you'll keep it for many years, and keyboard layout is important to you, it may be a worthile choice priced per hour of usage. You can also think of it as pre-moded and warrantied thinkPad :-). I have a couple of t480 and e595 around too but much prefer the t25. I also have a client mandated HP that, while it does have a track point, has an apple-style format and keyboard that drives me up the wall. Non-sensical unique layout, no feel in keys, plus dreaded combined up and down arrows (WHY?? There's so much room on that side! So clearly a choice of pretty over useful/functional. The t25 arrow keys extend down past space key, so they are full size, which neatly demonstrates their priority aligns with mine :)
  - petodo 4y ago
    You spend 10 hours each day out of office/house? Seems like problem easily solvable by external keyboard (you can keep same one at home and at office), that's what I do. I have T520 (specifically bought originally for keyboard instead newer models) and hooked up wireless full size keyboard, mouse and 32" external display since msot of the time I work from home, if I travel I just take wireless mouse with me.
    - NikolaNovak 4y ago
      Agreed; I do have the Microsoft Skulpt keyboards for both client HP and my T25 laptop (plus monitors on stands etc). But... life! :). Two very young kids and wife who need support through the day, so I end up using laptop as a lap-top frequently enough :). I take my dad to a doctor appointment, or work from friend's home, etc etc. Overall, laptop's keyboard is still important for my personal use-cases.

exitb 4y ago

Well, we tend to assume that the keyboard layout we know from the PCs in the 90s is the only correct one, but these things were always changing and adapting to the needs. Looking at the average modern computer user, I understand why a contemporary MacBook keyboard looks the way it does. That being said, it's disappointing that every other laptop keyboard looks just the same. Modern tech always converges to a single design, there is no market to create something, unless you can really sell millions of it.

NikolaNovak 4y ago
I agree with your point. 90s keyboard isn't necessarily "the right one", or perfect. BUT! I dislike every manufacturer making their own keyboard layout with no clear benefit or improvement. If it works don't break it. In particular, hiding key navigational keys (home / end / pgup / pgdwn), which are not exactly a nerdy requirement - anybody using ms office or browser or other tools proficiently will adopt them.
justsomehnguy 4y ago
> adapting to the needs >> goddamn PrtScr instead of ContextMenu Please show me the people who needs to make screenshots so often what there is a key under right thumb. > keyboard layout we know from the PCs in the 90s is the only correct one It's not the best but it's on the every goddamn desktop keyboard. The only reason it's get constantly re-arranged without any regard to usability or common sense[0] is what someone needs to justify own existence, just like "web-masters" which "plays with fonts" because otherwise they would be doing nothing. [0] how many times you powered down/pressed without any result Backspace only to encounter what it is not Backspace anymore, but Power?

bartislartfast 4y ago

> yet since 2010 the humanity lost this wondrous know-how more like its cheaper