6 ms·

5 People killed as plane carrying environment workers to Ohio tragedy crashes

95 points by dlcmh 4y ago

mdrzn 4y ago
"All five people killed in the accident worked for consulting firm CTEH, which provides response services, including “environmental data collection, and management, GIS, safety, incident management, industrial hygiene, toxicology and human health consulting for the public and private sectors.”" Damn, conspiracy theorist will have a field day now.
- jmarbach 4y ago
  People conspire to do things all the time.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  > Damn, conspiracy theorist will have a field day now. They have a field day any day. There are so many events to pick from that they are never short of material and when they are they make it up.
- kossTKR 4y ago
  People conspire, and always have from the earliest civilizations. Just because absolutely idiotic theories have conveniently been highlighted like Q or Flat Earth we shouldn't equate it to the last sad remnants of what would have been standard research journalism just 20 years ago. People are turning to cartoonish conspiracies because "Journalism" has either died or been bought. It's a dystopian media landscape we live in and the power brokers benefit from both the vacuum and the circus that has come in its place.
  - loriverkutya 4y ago
    > always has been from the earliest civilizations Can you provide something to support your statement?
    - kossTKR 4y ago
      I mean it's literally right in standard macro-history; religious cults, clubs, closed societies in all forms through literally all ages. A newer very interesting book on the subject going back even further: [The Power of Ritual in Prehistory Secret Societies and Origins of Social Complexity](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/power-of-ritual-in-prehistory/1C80D07EC1D8036E3633F8A8F4527467 https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/power-of-ritual-in-preh...) I find it weird that - especially americans - still don't think in terms of groups, but see the individual as the driver of history - a historiographical school that has been outdated for 70 years now.
      - logicalmonster 4y ago
        > americans still don't think in terms of groups As an American, I find this statement radically perplexing. Through the scourge of identity politics, we do nothing but categorize people into groups in basically every avenue of society. You can't go to college without your group affecting you. You can't find a good job without your group mattering. Individualists who essentially want to take the Martin Luther King Jr speech literally (I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.) can be castigated as the most vile people by some for not wanting to treat anybody differently from anybody else.
        paulluuk 4y ago
        > You can't go to college without your group affecting you. You can't find a good job without your group mattering. Do you have any evidence to back this up? Which "group-membership" prevents you from going to college or getting a good job? Edit: I think I misunderstood, obviously different ethnical groups have different experiences in their careers and lives in general.
        pc86 4y ago
        Just ask anyone, of any group, and they'll tell you how being in their group made both of these harder while less qualified people of the other groups had it easier than they did.
  - phiy 4y ago
    Investigative journalism is dead, and with it, the checks and balances that the first amendment was supposed to guarantee. Soviet-esque silence on important issues doesn't win confidence.
    - simonw 4y ago
      Investigative journalism is alive and well, though funding sources for it have been changing now that there are less traditional newspapers who can afford to invest heavily in it. https://www.propublica.org/ https://www.propublica.org/ is one great example of the non-profit model applied successfully to investigative reporting.
    - pohl 4y ago
      Soviet-esque, but if the party was driven by profit motive, though, right?
  - bigger_inside 4y ago
    There's a sub-field in sociology that asks, HOW does something get called a conspiracy theory[1]. As a processual question, it's much more interesting than the deterministic "is this a conspiracy theory or not". Part of it is an interesting difference: sometimes, we call secret coordination simply, "organization" or "planning" - when we think it's legitimate to do, expect that it happens, and intend to make it seem harmless (which it often is not; the vast majority of organizational action can be characterized as that, and there is someone harmed by this coordination more often than not. Teachers "organizing" grades happens behind students' backs in closed conferences; the results are life-changing. In principle, people think this is legitimate (where the sociological question is "wait, why?" - not inviting an argument on the pros and cons, but asking the historical question, how did it come about that we developed this process as "normal", with the mere recognition that it need not be this way - without making a judgment on whether this is better or worse, just pointing out a contingency.) Goffman calls the actions of a family behind the back of a family member "collusion" and outlines how circles of collusion expand, like when people start including more and more people, including doctors, without the member's knowledge, to confront them with a "fait accompli" [2]. Again, not arguing for or against at this point, just noting: from the point of view of the member on the other side, this is a secretly organized betrayal. Much of society largely approves, shown by the involvement of accredited authority figures (including, later on, courts, if it comes to that). This, again, is neither obvious nor natural; it's just what developed (and can be criticized). So, saying this happens is not a conspiracy theory. Then come the sociological studies about how this -actually- happens. How students get punished through grade adjustments for being a general pain to teachers. How families use the medical system to get rid of unwanted actions that shame them in public (Aunt Hilda is claiming weird things to neighbors. A medical label will calm the situation; or, Uncle Joe doesn't want to sell the house, but we, the children, think he should. A court decision will make this simpler.) All of these things happen, all day every day. NOW they call into question the legitimacy of these institutions. NOW they get called conspiracy theories; a tool to protect the institution from this questioning. [1] Anton, Andreas, Michael Schetsche, and Michael K. Walter. "Einleitung: Wirklichkeitskonstruktion zwischen Orthodoxie und Heterodoxie–zur Wissenssoziologie von Verschwörungstheorien." Konspiration: Soziologie des Verschwörungsdenkens (2014): 9-25. [2] Goffman, Erving. "The insanity of place." Psychiatry 32, no. 4 (1969): 357-388.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- colpabar 4y ago
  Did you know that another person related to epstein (and the clintons) has “committed suicide”? https://nypost.com/2023/02/22/death-of-clinton-aide-tied-to-jeffrey-epstein-ruled-suicide/ https://nypost.com/2023/02/22/death-of-clinton-aide-tied-to-... Rich and powerful people conspire to do horrible things to regular people. Stop pretending it’s normal to just believe everything the government and corporate owned media tells you.
  - mcculley 4y ago
    One should apply even more skepticism to tabloids like The New York Post.
    - colpabar 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - mcculley 4y ago
        You are free to keep believing tabloids and being skeptical of the government. I will continue to be appropriately skeptical of both. Can you let us know which tabloids you trust? I would like to optimize my advertising spend.
        dpkirchner 4y ago
        Do you sell non-GMO seeds encased in gold? Will you ship to empty fields?
- mulmen 4y ago
  > Damn, conspiracy theorist will have a field day now. Is there any evidence of foul play here? Why would this be more notable to conspiracy theorists than any other plane crash?
  - andrewflnr 4y ago
    Conspiracy theorists don't need evidence. The mere suggestion that someone could benefit from killing environmental workers is plenty to keep them going.
    - mulmen 4y ago
      But why invite it? There’s a bunch or drivel posted in response but absent elsewhere in the comments. It’s not just feeding trolls, it’s leaving cookies and milk out for them.
      - andrewflnr 4y ago
        It's only "inviting" them to the extent that any mention of conspiracy theories is an invitation. Maybe a mistake, but not because of anything to do with evidence for/against any particular claim.
        mulmen 4y ago
        Well, yeah, that’s my point. What is it about this case that makes invoking conspiracy theorists anything more than bait?
favaq 4y ago
[flagged]
tobyhinloopen 4y ago
Ohio cant catch a break
- s5300 4y ago
  Ohio votes against having any breaks (handouts r 4 commynists & gubbermint regyerlations r bad) Source: Ohioan & former door-to-door campaign canvasser (canvassee?) *p.s., be careful going door to door knocking in Ohio - you will often be greeted with firearms in hand, in even the most suburbia of neighborhoods.
  - pohl 4y ago
    That is the crux of the problem. Leopards eating faces.
  - tobyhinloopen 4y ago
    I truly cannot imagine a world where I would be greeted at a door by someone carrying a gun. Never mind having a gun on hand.
  - cududa 4y ago
    Don't know what the downvotes are for. I work in Ohio politics. Some other problems: we're one of, if not the most gerrymandered states in the country - particularly our state legislature. Karl Rove's favorite testbed. The DNC gives us peanuts then wonders why everyone here loses races.
smitty1e 4y ago
Heaven rest their souls.
bawana 4y ago
why didn't the us news report this?
- hairofadog 4y ago
  I see lots of US news outlets reporting this.
iraqmtpizza 4y ago
all because of an overheated bearing
- blisterpeanuts 4y ago
  Actually they were on their way to inspect a different disaster some 70 miles away from the derailment. From the article: “The employees had been on their way to help deal with the fatal metal plant explosion that took place earlier this week in Bedford, Ohio.”
LeifCarrotson 4y ago
This is newsworthy not because a small twin went down but because the business using it was working on the Ohio tragedy. There are more than 4 fatal general aviation accidents per week. Over the past 2 decades, here have been roughly 2 fatalities from 1.25 fatal accidents for every 100,000 flight hours in general aviation, with 260 accidents per year. There are roughly 0.05 fatalities from 0.005 fatal accidents for every 100,000 flight hours on airlines, with an average of 1 accident per year: https://www.bts.gov/content/us-general-aviationa-safety-data https://www.bts.gov/content/us-general-aviationa-safety-data https://www.bts.gov/content/us-air-carrier-safety-data https://www.bts.gov/content/us-air-carrier-safety-data Comparatively, there have been an average of 1.2 fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles, or (generously assuming 60 mph) 0.07 fatalities per 100,000 hours. Taking a general aviation flight is 30x riskier than driving a car for an hour. Taking an airline flight is a little safer than driving for an hour. I'd not run these numbers before, I knew it was higher but not that high. It'll make me think twice when our partner business offers to fly me out to work on one of their machines that's several hours away. I'm specifically thinking of the 20 hours of driving I did last week from Michigan to Tennessee; I think there's a ratio of drunk drivers on rural roads at night versus daytime highway miles that's not captured, but it's not what I thought it was!
- codazoda 4y ago
  Where did these numbers come from? I’m really surprised that driving (0.07 fatalities per 100k miles) is not significantly more dangerous than commercial flying (0.05 fatalities per 100k miles). I always thought driving was much more dangerous than commercial flying, but apparently only slightly.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    I assume because vehicle collisions have much more morbidity risk, that is not captured in fatality statistics.
  - LeifCarrotson 4y ago
    Sorry, I didn't link the driving data, but it's here: https://www.bts.gov/content/motor-vehicle-safety-data https://www.bts.gov/content/motor-vehicle-safety-data And the numbers were for fatalities per 100k hours, not miles, because the flight data is recorded in hours.
TurkishPoptart 4y ago
It's comforting that even a British publication refers to this as a tragedy, but neither our president nor administration will even acknowledge it.
pasttense01 4y ago
From another article: "Emergency services were alerted to the crash at 12:02 p.m., the Little Rock Police Department said in a Facebook post.. There was a line of storms moving through the area around the same time, according to CNN Weather. There were no warnings alerted for the storms, but the National Weather Service issued a special statement calling for gusts up to 50 mph. The highest gust at the airport was 46 mph, recorded at 12:02 p.m." https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/23/us/arkansas-plane-crash-five-killed/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/23/us/arkansas-plane-crash-five-... It looks like the crash was because of the storms and that if the pilot had been more patient there wouldn't have been this loss of life.

95 points by dlcmh 4y ago

"All five people killed in the accident worked for consulting firm CTEH, which provides response services, including “environmental data collection, and management, GIS, safety, incident management, industrial hygiene, toxicology and human health consulting for the public and private sectors.”" Damn, conspiracy theorist will have a field day now.

jmarbach 4y ago
People conspire to do things all the time.
jacquesm 4y ago
> Damn, conspiracy theorist will have a field day now. They have a field day any day. There are so many events to pick from that they are never short of material and when they are they make it up.
kossTKR 4y ago
People conspire, and always have from the earliest civilizations. Just because absolutely idiotic theories have conveniently been highlighted like Q or Flat Earth we shouldn't equate it to the last sad remnants of what would have been standard research journalism just 20 years ago. People are turning to cartoonish conspiracies because "Journalism" has either died or been bought. It's a dystopian media landscape we live in and the power brokers benefit from both the vacuum and the circus that has come in its place.
- loriverkutya 4y ago
  > always has been from the earliest civilizations Can you provide something to support your statement?
  - kossTKR 4y ago
    I mean it's literally right in standard macro-history; religious cults, clubs, closed societies in all forms through literally all ages. A newer very interesting book on the subject going back even further: [The Power of Ritual in Prehistory Secret Societies and Origins of Social Complexity](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/power-of-ritual-in-prehistory/1C80D07EC1D8036E3633F8A8F4527467 https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/power-of-ritual-in-preh...) I find it weird that - especially americans - still don't think in terms of groups, but see the individual as the driver of history - a historiographical school that has been outdated for 70 years now.
    - logicalmonster 4y ago
      > americans still don't think in terms of groups As an American, I find this statement radically perplexing. Through the scourge of identity politics, we do nothing but categorize people into groups in basically every avenue of society. You can't go to college without your group affecting you. You can't find a good job without your group mattering. Individualists who essentially want to take the Martin Luther King Jr speech literally (I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.) can be castigated as the most vile people by some for not wanting to treat anybody differently from anybody else.
      - paulluuk 4y ago
        > You can't go to college without your group affecting you. You can't find a good job without your group mattering. Do you have any evidence to back this up? Which "group-membership" prevents you from going to college or getting a good job? Edit: I think I misunderstood, obviously different ethnical groups have different experiences in their careers and lives in general.
        pc86 4y ago
        Just ask anyone, of any group, and they'll tell you how being in their group made both of these harder while less qualified people of the other groups had it easier than they did.
- phiy 4y ago
  Investigative journalism is dead, and with it, the checks and balances that the first amendment was supposed to guarantee. Soviet-esque silence on important issues doesn't win confidence.
  - simonw 4y ago
    Investigative journalism is alive and well, though funding sources for it have been changing now that there are less traditional newspapers who can afford to invest heavily in it. https://www.propublica.org/ https://www.propublica.org/ is one great example of the non-profit model applied successfully to investigative reporting.
  - pohl 4y ago
    Soviet-esque, but if the party was driven by profit motive, though, right?
- bigger_inside 4y ago
  There's a sub-field in sociology that asks, HOW does something get called a conspiracy theory[1]. As a processual question, it's much more interesting than the deterministic "is this a conspiracy theory or not". Part of it is an interesting difference: sometimes, we call secret coordination simply, "organization" or "planning" - when we think it's legitimate to do, expect that it happens, and intend to make it seem harmless (which it often is not; the vast majority of organizational action can be characterized as that, and there is someone harmed by this coordination more often than not. Teachers "organizing" grades happens behind students' backs in closed conferences; the results are life-changing. In principle, people think this is legitimate (where the sociological question is "wait, why?" - not inviting an argument on the pros and cons, but asking the historical question, how did it come about that we developed this process as "normal", with the mere recognition that it need not be this way - without making a judgment on whether this is better or worse, just pointing out a contingency.) Goffman calls the actions of a family behind the back of a family member "collusion" and outlines how circles of collusion expand, like when people start including more and more people, including doctors, without the member's knowledge, to confront them with a "fait accompli" [2]. Again, not arguing for or against at this point, just noting: from the point of view of the member on the other side, this is a secretly organized betrayal. Much of society largely approves, shown by the involvement of accredited authority figures (including, later on, courts, if it comes to that). This, again, is neither obvious nor natural; it's just what developed (and can be criticized). So, saying this happens is not a conspiracy theory. Then come the sociological studies about how this -actually- happens. How students get punished through grade adjustments for being a general pain to teachers. How families use the medical system to get rid of unwanted actions that shame them in public (Aunt Hilda is claiming weird things to neighbors. A medical label will calm the situation; or, Uncle Joe doesn't want to sell the house, but we, the children, think he should. A court decision will make this simpler.) All of these things happen, all day every day. NOW they call into question the legitimacy of these institutions. NOW they get called conspiracy theories; a tool to protect the institution from this questioning. [1] Anton, Andreas, Michael Schetsche, and Michael K. Walter. "Einleitung: Wirklichkeitskonstruktion zwischen Orthodoxie und Heterodoxie–zur Wissenssoziologie von Verschwörungstheorien." Konspiration: Soziologie des Verschwörungsdenkens (2014): 9-25. [2] Goffman, Erving. "The insanity of place." Psychiatry 32, no. 4 (1969): 357-388.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
colpabar 4y ago
Did you know that another person related to epstein (and the clintons) has “committed suicide”? https://nypost.com/2023/02/22/death-of-clinton-aide-tied-to-jeffrey-epstein-ruled-suicide/ https://nypost.com/2023/02/22/death-of-clinton-aide-tied-to-... Rich and powerful people conspire to do horrible things to regular people. Stop pretending it’s normal to just believe everything the government and corporate owned media tells you.
- mcculley 4y ago
  One should apply even more skepticism to tabloids like The New York Post.
  - colpabar 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - mcculley 4y ago
      You are free to keep believing tabloids and being skeptical of the government. I will continue to be appropriately skeptical of both. Can you let us know which tabloids you trust? I would like to optimize my advertising spend.
      - dpkirchner 4y ago
        Do you sell non-GMO seeds encased in gold? Will you ship to empty fields?
mulmen 4y ago
> Damn, conspiracy theorist will have a field day now. Is there any evidence of foul play here? Why would this be more notable to conspiracy theorists than any other plane crash?
- andrewflnr 4y ago
  Conspiracy theorists don't need evidence. The mere suggestion that someone could benefit from killing environmental workers is plenty to keep them going.
  - mulmen 4y ago
    But why invite it? There’s a bunch or drivel posted in response but absent elsewhere in the comments. It’s not just feeding trolls, it’s leaving cookies and milk out for them.
    - andrewflnr 4y ago
      It's only "inviting" them to the extent that any mention of conspiracy theories is an invitation. Maybe a mistake, but not because of anything to do with evidence for/against any particular claim.
      - mulmen 4y ago
        Well, yeah, that’s my point. What is it about this case that makes invoking conspiracy theorists anything more than bait?

favaq 4y ago

[flagged]

tobyhinloopen 4y ago

Ohio cant catch a break

s5300 4y ago
Ohio votes against having any breaks (handouts r 4 commynists & gubbermint regyerlations r bad) Source: Ohioan & former door-to-door campaign canvasser (canvassee?) *p.s., be careful going door to door knocking in Ohio - you will often be greeted with firearms in hand, in even the most suburbia of neighborhoods.
- pohl 4y ago
  That is the crux of the problem. Leopards eating faces.
- tobyhinloopen 4y ago
  I truly cannot imagine a world where I would be greeted at a door by someone carrying a gun. Never mind having a gun on hand.
- cududa 4y ago
  Don't know what the downvotes are for. I work in Ohio politics. Some other problems: we're one of, if not the most gerrymandered states in the country - particularly our state legislature. Karl Rove's favorite testbed. The DNC gives us peanuts then wonders why everyone here loses races.

smitty1e 4y ago

Heaven rest their souls.

bawana 4y ago

why didn't the us news report this?

hairofadog 4y ago
I see lots of US news outlets reporting this.

iraqmtpizza 4y ago

all because of an overheated bearing

blisterpeanuts 4y ago
Actually they were on their way to inspect a different disaster some 70 miles away from the derailment. From the article: “The employees had been on their way to help deal with the fatal metal plant explosion that took place earlier this week in Bedford, Ohio.”

LeifCarrotson 4y ago

This is newsworthy not because a small twin went down but because the business using it was working on the Ohio tragedy. There are more than 4 fatal general aviation accidents per week. Over the past 2 decades, here have been roughly 2 fatalities from 1.25 fatal accidents for every 100,000 flight hours in general aviation, with 260 accidents per year. There are roughly 0.05 fatalities from 0.005 fatal accidents for every 100,000 flight hours on airlines, with an average of 1 accident per year: https://www.bts.gov/content/us-general-aviationa-safety-data https://www.bts.gov/content/us-general-aviationa-safety-data https://www.bts.gov/content/us-air-carrier-safety-data https://www.bts.gov/content/us-air-carrier-safety-data Comparatively, there have been an average of 1.2 fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles, or (generously assuming 60 mph) 0.07 fatalities per 100,000 hours. Taking a general aviation flight is 30x riskier than driving a car for an hour. Taking an airline flight is a little safer than driving for an hour. I'd not run these numbers before, I knew it was higher but not that high. It'll make me think twice when our partner business offers to fly me out to work on one of their machines that's several hours away. I'm specifically thinking of the 20 hours of driving I did last week from Michigan to Tennessee; I think there's a ratio of drunk drivers on rural roads at night versus daytime highway miles that's not captured, but it's not what I thought it was!

codazoda 4y ago
Where did these numbers come from? I’m really surprised that driving (0.07 fatalities per 100k miles) is not significantly more dangerous than commercial flying (0.05 fatalities per 100k miles). I always thought driving was much more dangerous than commercial flying, but apparently only slightly.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  I assume because vehicle collisions have much more morbidity risk, that is not captured in fatality statistics.
- LeifCarrotson 4y ago
  Sorry, I didn't link the driving data, but it's here: https://www.bts.gov/content/motor-vehicle-safety-data https://www.bts.gov/content/motor-vehicle-safety-data And the numbers were for fatalities per 100k hours, not miles, because the flight data is recorded in hours.

TurkishPoptart 4y ago

It's comforting that even a British publication refers to this as a tragedy, but neither our president nor administration will even acknowledge it.

pasttense01 4y ago

From another article: "Emergency services were alerted to the crash at 12:02 p.m., the Little Rock Police Department said in a Facebook post.. There was a line of storms moving through the area around the same time, according to CNN Weather. There were no warnings alerted for the storms, but the National Weather Service issued a special statement calling for gusts up to 50 mph. The highest gust at the airport was 46 mph, recorded at 12:02 p.m." https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/23/us/arkansas-plane-crash-five-killed/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/23/us/arkansas-plane-crash-five-... It looks like the crash was because of the storms and that if the pilot had been more patient there wouldn't have been this loss of life.